Anyone believe we will be persecuted or killed for our faith in these next to the last days?

[EarsToHear]

This is how I see it too.

For those who think about FEMA camps and beheadings in Peoria, don't be afraid. None of us can be ready for actual persecution now, God gives us the grace we need when we need it, not before. I'm sure people like Stephen didn't think they could face martyrdom by stoning but when it came Stephen's time, God met Him and became His strength.

All of us are going by *feelings* in this thread because none of us can know our future outside what the Bible has told us. If folks are going to post things that induce fear in others, this kind of speculation is not a good idea.

Indeed, and I also agree with Talia. Jesus said many times not to worry, not to fear.

Speculation based on speculation based on speculation will lead to a wrong conclusion.

When the creepy-crawlies start coming from scary thoughts about persecution and fanciful lack, it's time to read the Bible and feast on Jesus' peace.

[TaliaKirana]

In my earlier post, I never meant to imply we are better than our brothers and sisters suffering in other places. Really, living in American/Western society is its own set of challenges. Here we have to avoid the temptation to be obsessed with material things, avoid the heresy being spread from many pulpits, and avoid becoming discouraged.

[ncbelle]

We know that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. We also know that the rapture will only happen once that final person that God knows will accept Him during the church age is saved. We are in agreement that the full seven years of the tribulation is appointed by Jesus Himself, and is thus wrath. We are undeniably in the beginning of sorrows. Things are getting pretty bad, even in America. Christians suffer persecution worldwide all the time. As of yet, persecution in terms of being arrested, or killed for our faith is next to nill in America, but not so in other countries. I dare say the only thing keeping it that way is that we are a society free to worship as we choose (not the case in many other countries). We also know that the devil is working even now behind the scenes to establish a one world order, in which he will be the head. Our country is most likely in for some changes, and not for the better. Things are going to get much worse, before they get better. Think about this also: Does the start of the tribulation give you the impression that the on world order will start being established then, or will it pretty well be established ahead of time? Will there even be anyone who refused to take the mark of the beast by that point in time, or will all those opposed to the new world order (and there are non-christians for which this is true) be gone before then? Is the anti-christ going to come on the scene and rule over America in its current state (I know it's bad, but it is not yet a dictatorship)?

We all know that Catholics do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. They state that Christians have suffered in history, and God did not rescue them then, so why would he now? Well, because persecution is a certainty, but persecution is not wrath. On the other end of the scale there seem to be those who would place ANY persecution that is to come in America as wrath, in which case in their minds, they will be gone by then. Yes, the tribulation and God's wrath are coming, and yes we will not be here for that. We know that after the battle of God and Magog, Israel will burn their weapons for seven years, so this battle is likely to occur just preceeding the tribulation. Could there be a gap of time between the rapture and the start of the tribulation, in which this battle occurs? Maybe. But, what we must remember is we, the body of Christ, are here during this church age with a mission. Once our job as the church is accomplised, not before, is when we will be gone. I tend to feel that since the Holy Spirit will be removed during the tribulation, and it will be difficult to come to be saved, Gog and Magog will be before the rapture. Many people will know that the Lord is God as a result of this battle, and hopefully God's plan is that they will be included with us in the rapture. God will send a strong delusion so that many will believe a lie after our departure. Those who are deceived will be those who heard the truth and rejected Jesus before the rapture. I'm hoping Gog and Magog is a last ditch effort by God to bring people to Him, before He sends His wrath. Anyway, I am rambling...

My burning question is: Where do we draw the line between persecution and God's wrath? We Americans can tend to be spoiled. We don't suffer prolific persecution generally as Christians in other countries tend to, so we think that if hardship is coming to America, that means we are fixing to leave. Not until our job is done we're not! Should we long to see Jesus? YES! Should we be watching? YES! Should we be witnessing like today is the last day, because time is running out? YES!!! But should we think that we aren't appointed to suffer persecution? NO! We should put on the full armor of God, because we are going to need it!

Maranatha!

[In Christ]

NCBelle...Think about this also: Does the start of the tribulation give you the impression that the on world order will start being established then, or will it pretty well be established ahead of time? Will there even be anyone who refused to take the mark of the beast by that point in time

I think the New World Order will have to be pretty much established prior to the beginning of the Tribulation, as IMHO the A.C. will be the leader of the NWO and he will arise through this newly formed GOV, and just as he is introduced at the leader of the NWO he will sign a covenant with many for peace...

The Mark of the Beast does not come until Mid-Trib when the A.C. forces his "New Financial" policies onto the people. However, I know many many Christians who have already refused the MOTB

Watching the world of Policics and economic chaos each day is enough to prove we are headed for that NWO and then into the Trib... Fasten your seatbelts folks we will be outta here prior to all this formally taking place...

[ncbelle]

My point in all that being: Persecution is not Wrath. We cannot throw persecution in with wrath, and say we will be exempt from all of it. We also cannot throw wrath in with persecution, and say that we will experiance it. The rapture will occur BEFORE God's wrath, yet NOT before that last soul of the church age is born again! So...Just because we see calamity up ahead, does not mean we won't experiance it. It isn't as if life will be pretty well mundane and then all of a sudden get bad after we are gone; It will get bad before also.

[DragonTiger]

I think the New World Order will have to be pretty much established prior to the beginning of the Tribulation, as IMHO the A.C. will be the leader of the NWO and he will arise through this newly formed GOV, and just as he is introduced at the leader of the NWO he will sign a covenant with many for peace...

It will happen before sign the peace Israel....however not on time but before.

That what I think

[RandallB]

My point in all that being: Persecution is not Wrath. We cannot throw persecution in with wrath, and say we will be exempt from all of it. We also cannot throw wrath in with persecution, and say that we will experiance it. The rapture will occur BEFORE God's wrath, yet NOT before that last soul of the church age is born again! So...Just because we see calamity up ahead, does not mean we won't experiance it. It isn't as if life will be pretty well mundane and then all of a sudden get bad after we are gone; It will get bad before also.

Wrath and Persecution and Discipline are different. The Lord sometimes allows the evil one's Persecution as one method in His Fatherly Discipline of His children but His children are entirely exempt from His Wrath/Judgments since we were judged at the Cross.

I am a total NON-believer in Partial Rapture and Partial Wrath theories. The latter holding that part of His Bride will experience His Wrath/Judgments. That is like saying that only His Bride's elbow will suffer Wrath/Judgment. No Wrath for any part of the Bride - Zero, Nada, Zilch.

One way we can tell the difference between Wrath and Persecutions is from the scriptures. If the Lord says that He is executing Wrath or Judgements in a certain situation then it is not Persecutions nor Disciplines.

The Lord has set several examples in which He does not let His Wrath/Judgments fall until the last Righteous One has been brought out of the selected judgment area.

[Buzzardhut]

My point in all that being: Persecution is not Wrath. We cannot throw persecution in with wrath, and say we will be exempt from all of it. We also cannot throw wrath in with persecution, and say that we will experiance it. The rapture will occur BEFORE God's wrath, yet NOT before that last soul of the church age is born again! So...Just because we see calamity up ahead, does not mean we won't experiance it. It isn't as if life will be pretty well mundane and then all of a sudden get bad after we are gone; It will get bad before also.

God's wrath is His judgments upon the earth's elements; satan's wrath is pursuing and killing believers.

[HikerLady]

Speaking of persecution, I've heard people, mostly acquaintances at my church, saying that they are 'sure' that Jesus will rapture us before serious persecution (as in some other countries) starts here in the US . Someone set me straight if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that if He tarries, we could eventually be jailed and killed for the Gospel here in the US. In other words, some seem to think we are immune from it or something. Maybe they're confusing persecution with God's wrath? Has anyone else heard people talk this way?

[SoundingtheAlarm]

Nature of the Church by Dr. Thomas Ice


It is not uncommon to hear anti-pretribulationists discount pretribulationism because the Bible teaches that Christians will suffer for Christ. Since pretribulationists teach that the church will not go through the tribulation, some attempt to equate this with a view that Believers will never experience hardship of any kind during the current church age. This is a distortion of our views. Pretribulationism teaches, by God’s grace and decree, the church will not go through the time of God’s wrath because the tribulation is designed for purposes which do not include the church. In fact, we believe that during the church age it is not uncommon for Believers to experience tribulation and even martyrdom.

Church Age Sufferings

The New Testament clearly teaches that church age believers will suffer (John 15:18-25; 16:33; Phil. 1:29; Col. 1:24; 2 Tim. 3:12, etc.). Yet this same New Testament promises a deliverance from a coming or future time of wrath. Thus, it follows that there must be different kinds or periods of wrath or persecution that the church will experience and another kind from which she will be delivered. That is exactly the case. Believers suffer persecution during the current church age, but is promised deliverance from a future, coming wrath—the wrath of the tribulation.


God's Purpose for the Church

God’s plan and purpose for the church would naturally relate to whether He will remove His Bride before the tribulation or have her go through it. Only pretribulationism is able to give full biblical import to the New Testament teaching that the church differs significantly from Israel. The church is said to be a mystery (Eph. 3:1-13) by which Jews and Gentiles are now united into one body in Christ (Eph. 2:11-22). This explains why the church’s translation to heaven is never mentioned in any Old Testament passage dealing with the second coming after the tribulation, and why the church is promised deliverance from the time of God’s wrath during the tribulation (1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10).

Believers are tested during the church age via the persecution and sometimes even death at the hand of the world (John 15:18–26; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:12; Rev. 3:10). However, God’s wrath is never directed toward the church, Christ’s bride. Can you image the Lord beating up His bride via the wrath of the tribulation and then marrying her at the end of His period of wrath against her? I cannot, nor does the New Testament, which is why both of us teach the pre-trib rapture view. It is helpful, in determining the timing of the rapture, to note that the translation of the church is never mentioned at all in passages that speak of the second coming of Christ after the tribulation. [1]

Delivered from Wrath

The Apostle Paul notes that the church is not appointed to God’s wrath to be dispensed during the seven years of the tribulation in the following passages:

Romans 5:9—“Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.”
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10—“you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.”
1 Thessalonians 5:9—“For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Because God has promised that the church cannot enter the time of “the wrath of the Lamb” or “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:16-17), the church will have been taken to heaven before this time.

Old Testament Origin of Wrath Terminology

The Old Testament taught that there would come a time, just before Israel returns in faith to the Lord, resulting in God returning them to a place of glory in the world. Deuteronomy 4:30 said, “When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days, you will return to the Lord your God and listen to His voice.” The word “distress” or “tribulation” in the KJV is said in Zephaniah 1:15 and 18 to be a time of God’s wrath. “A day of wrath is that day, a day of trouble and distress, a day of destruction and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness” (Zep. 1:15.) “Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them on the day of the Lord’s wrath; and all the earth will be devoured in the fire of His jealousy, for He will make a complete end, indeed a terrifying one, of all the inhabitants of the earth” (Zep. 1:18).

The Old Testament calls this time “the day of the Lord,” or what is more commonly known as “the tribulation.” It will be a time of wrath—God’s wrath against the world and the earth dwellers. What is the purpose for His wrath? God’s purpose for the seven-year tribulation includes a time of wrath or judgment upon the Gentiles for their treatment through the years of Israel (Deut. 30:7) and for their rejection of Israel’s Messiah–Jesus (Rev. 3:10). It becomes obvious that since the church does not fit God’s purpose for His wrath, God has chosen to remove the church from this time-period. This is the point Paul is making when he promises deliverance from this time of wrath. The only way this can be fulfilled is through a pretribulational rapture of the church. Dr. Renald Showers explains:

the reason church saints should protect their minds with the certainty of being delivered from the wrathful first phase of the broad Day of the Lord is because God has appointed them to a radically different destiny from that of the unsaved. The unsaved will be overtaken by and experience the destruction of the wrathful first phase of the broad Day of the Lord. By contrast, God did not purpose church saints to experience His wrath. Instead, He intentionally purposed them to obtain salvation or deliverance from the wrathful first phase of the broad Day, which belongs to the unsaved. [2]
Forgiveness of sins through Christ prepares the church so that she will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9), which includes the tribulation. This will be achieved by the rapture, mentioned by Paul in the preceding chapter (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

Kept from the Hour

The church is explicitly promised, through the church of Philadelphia (Rev. 3:10), deliverance from “the hour of testing,” which is a reference to the tribulation. Here is a clear passage teaching that the church will escape the tribulation, since God has revealed that it will be “to test those who dwell upon the earth.”

Revelation 3:10—“‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.’”
Believers are promised deliverance from the hour of testing. This means that the church is totally absent from the time period of this testing. It is said to be a time of worldwide testing. Further, it will test “those who dwell upon the earth.” This single Greek word “earth dwellers” is used ten other times in Revelation (6:10; 8:13; 11:10 [twice]; 13:8, 12, 14 [twice]; 17:2, 8), as “a company of people constantly in view through the Apocalypse as objects of God’s wrath because of their rebellion against Him.... These are men given up to evil and hatred of God’s saints.” [3] Thus, a contrast between what God has in store for His church and unbelievers could not be greater. Every aspect of this passage strongly supports pretribulationism. Jeffrey Townsend concludes as follows:

Although Revelation 3:10 describes the result of the rapture (i.e., the position and status of the church during the Tribulation), and not the rapture itself, the details of the hour of testing just mentioned establish the pretribulation rapture as the most logical deduction from this verse. The promise of preservation is from a period of time that will envelop the whole world. Only a pretribulation rapture would remove the church completely from the earth and its time continuum. Thus the pretribulation rapture is found to be a proper logical deduction from the data found in Revelation 3:10. [4]
Dr. Charles Ryrie adds:

the promise of Revelation 3:10 not only guarantees being kept from Tribulation trials but from the Tribulation period itself. The promise is not, "I will keep you from the trials." It is "I will keep you from the hour of the trials." [5]
Conclusion

The godly remnant of the tribulation are pictured as Israelites and Gentiles, not members of the church. Thus, pretribulationists do not confuse general terms like “elect” and “saints,” which are used in the Bible of all the saved of the ages, with specific terms like “church” and those “in Christ,” which refer to believers of this age only. The nature and purpose of the church is said to be unique and separate from Israel. This provides a biblical basis for removal of the church before God completes the final seven years leading up to Israel’s redemption and exaltation during the millennium. We have seen that there are specific passages promising the church’s removal before the time of the tribulation gets under way. These passages can only be harmonized with the rest of the Bible within a pre-trib framework, thus making sure that our Blessed Hope is imminent indeed. Maranatha!

[Verisimilitude]

There have been some excellent explanations here about the difference between persecution and the Wrath of God. I won't add to those. I do want to address the end of the church age...

Raised in catholic school, I was taught by the nuns that one day, one last person would accept Jesus (by becoming catholic of course), and that would trigger Jesus' return. Even though they don't accept the rapture, they do recognize He will return. The original statement in this thread is that one day, one last final person will accept Jesus, and that will signal the end of the church age. This sounds very close to catholic teaching.

The Church is here on a mission, of that there is no doubt. I see the Lord leaving the Church until the last possible second before His Wrath begins, but I see the Wrath as the trigger for the rapture, not the last believer. As stated, the Church has encountered a lot of persecution. From this we can guess that no amount of persecution against the Church will trigger the rapture. God is generous, He wants as many as possible to be saved, and I believe for this, He is holding back on His Wrath. We will not be subject to His Wrath, it cannot come as long as we are here.

So if we have persecution not triggering His Wrath and His Wrath being held back because He is long-suffering, what wil trigger the Wrath? It's got to be something to do with Israel, the apple of His eye. In my opinion, probably something to do with dividing Jerusalem. It's not that He's waiting for that final person to come to faith, for there will be people who come to faith during the tribulation. If it's not that, it has to be for Israel, for Jerusalem and for the sake of His Holy and unblemished Name. For this reason, we will be snatched quickly away, out of danger. Not the danger man or even demons represent, but real danger, the anger of the Living God!! Yes, there will be one final Church Age believer, but that is not going to trigger the rapture. The fact of the rapture happening is going to be the cause of there being a final Church Age believer.

You are right, at all times, we need to be wearing the full armor of God! Our enemy is prowling about as a lion, seeking who he can devour. The armor of God is the most excellent of defenses.

[IMSAVED]

I have been pondering that question myself lately.Just how bad will it get?The other day I was in several locations and their was police activity in each location.

[twisty58]

I agree that we will see tough times. (we are seeing them now). The question is, are we willing to die for Christ?
Yes. I am in His hands no matter what comes my way! But, I'm selfish...I wanna go home today!

[Jeanie]

I have read that 60% of biblical writings are prophetic in nature. Most have already been fulfilled, as they related to the first coming. However, as the Jews living in the age of Messiah were unable to identify Him as the son of God as prophecied, so it could be with the church as the preparations are being laid for the tribulation.
IMHO

[Buzzardhut]

I have been pondering that question myself lately.Just how bad will it get?

About as bad as it is right now; either we are raptured before the election, which gives Obama an easy win, or if Obama wins, the US will be just like living in Greece, but with Iran and Israel prepared to squabble and Europe prepared for one world govt. I can't see how we can be here very much longer.

[IMSAVED]

About as bad as it is right now; either we are raptured before the election, which gives Obama an easy win, or if Obama wins, the US will be just like living in Greece, but with Iran and Israel prepared to squabble and Europe prepared for one world govt. I can't see how we can be here very much longer.

I hope so.

[ReadytoGoNow]

Praying for just that also.

[HeIsEnough]

We don't suffer prolific persecution generally as Christians in other countries tend to, so we think that if hardship is coming to America, that means we are fixing to leave.

Persecution? It comes in many forms, I've felt the hate before, and suffering in various ways tied to my faith. Regarding 'suffering' as to being poor, or little money, that happens all the time already, the Lord provides strength and faith to endure lowly situations. If someone is really afraid of that sort of thing, they need to deal with that fear, the Lord does not leave His people without being triumphal through those things, and I suppose it takes going through that yourself to realize the strength the Lord gives His people. To death or imprisonment? Well, we have the Constitution and the general 'gist' of our society in the US, you'd need to overcome those things in order to allow for murder. That does not seem likely at all under the current circumstances. Obviously, circumstances can change. Someone would have to lay out a reasonable path for the US to suddenly decide that christians should die. I don't see it, it will take the AC and the whole world worshiping him, then it is easy to see.

The rapture will launch this world into chaos. Not just because of practical problems with lots of people disappearing, they'll be no one here to speak for God except what scripture tells us of the witnesses and the 144K. When the church is taken out, when Spirit indwelt believers leave, they'll be nothing holding this world back for doing its worst to those left, the man of sin will be revealed, he will be given authority and power to do his will. Woe to them.

[Verisimilitude]

About as bad as it is right now; either we are raptured before the election, which gives Obama an easy win, or if Obama wins, the US will be just like living in Greece, but with Iran and Israel prepared to squabble and Europe prepared for one world govt. I can't see how we can be here very much longer.

I don't believe there would be anymore elections ever after the rapture. There's going to be the chaos of all the missing people in addition to the chaos of all the natural disasters to follow. There will be martial law after the rapture, because mankind has shown any disaster can be an opportunity to start looting. It could well be counter-productive to change government leadership as any stability would be better than no stability.

Rather than helping Owebama win an election, I think the rapture will take care of cementing his leadership role in the US. Without an election, there would be no way to vote him out. In spite of his 'admission' that he is a Christian, I doubt him seriously and am sure he will still be here after the rapture. Further, the worldwide chaos that will ensue will be excuse to bring in the one world government along with a one world leader. Guess who would get my vote for that position.

I often wonder if the election of 2008 was the last presidential election this country will see. How many more minutes until we hear the sound of the last trump, the trump that tells us our Lord is coming and with the Wrath of the Lord soon to follow. The more I learn about prophecy, the closer I know we are to that moment. There are approximately 246,000 minutes left until the next election. Any one of those minutes could bring our salvation, the return of our Lord for us. I'm excited!!!

[ncbelle]

There have been some excellent explanations here about the difference between persecution and the Wrath of God. I won't add to those. I do want to address the end of the church age...

Raised in catholic school, I was taught by the nuns that one day, one last person would accept Jesus (by becoming catholic of course), and that would trigger Jesus' return. Even though they don't accept the rapture, they do recognize He will return. The original statement in this thread is that one day, one last final person will accept Jesus, and that will signal the end of the church age. This sounds very close to catholic teaching.

The Church is here on a mission, of that there is no doubt. I see the Lord leaving the Church until the last possible second before His Wrath begins, but I see the Wrath as the trigger for the rapture, not the last believer. As stated, the Church has encountered a lot of persecution. From this we can guess that no amount of persecution against the Church will trigger the rapture. God is generous, He wants as many as possible to be saved, and I believe for this, He is holding back on His Wrath. We will not be subject to His Wrath, it cannot come as long as we are here.

So if we have persecution not triggering His Wrath and His Wrath being held back because He is long-suffering, what wil trigger the Wrath? It's got to be something to do with Israel, the apple of His eye. In my opinion, probably something to do with dividing Jerusalem. It's not that He's waiting for that final person to come to faith, for there will be people who come to faith during the tribulation. If it's not that, it has to be for Israel, for Jerusalem and for the sake of His Holy and unblemished Name. For this reason, we will be snatched quickly away, out of danger. Not the danger man or even demons represent, but real danger, the anger of the Living God!! Yes, there will be one final Church Age believer, but that is not going to trigger the rapture. The fact of the rapture happening is going to be the cause of there being a final Church Age believer.

You are right, at all times, we need to be wearing the full armor of God! Our enemy is prowling about as a lion, seeking who he can devour. The armor of God is the most excellent of defenses.

I did not say people will not be saved during the tribulation. I see it as God knowing who will accept Him by faith during the church age, who needs a bit more prompting, and also who will not accept Him during the church age, but only during the wrath of the tribulation. So, once the "fulness of the gentiles" is reached, our job will be done and we will be gone! Romans 11:25 says "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Yes, Jewish people will be saved during the church age, as will Gentiles be saved during the tribulation, but there will come a day when that last soul that God knows will accept Him THEN, under those conditions does so, and that will free the other events to unfold, IMO.

My thought is that the Battle of Gog/Magog will be a witness to many nations, while the rapture itself (and tribulation) will be a witness to the Jewish people.