Why Christians are embracing their LGBT neighbors

[Crazed for Jesus]

Whoa, you can cut the tension on this thread with a knife. I think we need to take it down a couple of notches before we all fall out, remember, we'll be spending eternity together .

Anyway, it is my opinion that a Christian who is struggling with and trying to overcome sin is just as equal in the eyes of God as a Christian who is not struggling, we are saved through faith alone. However, if a true Christian who is 'homosexual' doesn't remain celibate is giving into sin and must ask forgiveness or else they are not grasping an important part of Christianity. Leviticus states that Homosexuality is an abomonation to the Lord, as is all sin. If we don't ask forgiveness for sins, how can we possibly ask for entrance to heaven?

[jackson64]

Uncle, Uncle......I haven't been beat up this badly since 3rd grade....

Many will say Lord Lord.....God knows the heart. My analogy was apt, just add in the word homosexuality instead of lying--it is exactly what many ( not all, for some struggle to change) are doing when they place exceptions to their profession of faith.

We are indeed saved by faith and not works or deeds--but faith in what? The word faith alone requires an object or tenet to go along with it. As Christians, we are saved by faith--That Jesus Christ is the Son of God and has taken our punishment upon Himself and died for our sins, so that when we die we will be clean in the eyes of God and be welcomed to spend eternity with God.

Denial of being a sinner or that homosexuality is a sin and saying that you have given your life, through faith, to Christ -- well somehow there seems to be an obvious contradiction to me. Are they seeking forgiveness for sins through faith or are they going to accept through faith God's gift of grace on all of their lives except for this one behavior which they refuse to give up ( again, not struggle with but refuse and embrace)....anyhow, you guys win........I guess the consensus is that one can ask for God's grace overall for all sins...and then we can secretly decide to hold onto the ones we choose ( again, choice of an embraced lifestyle and not to be confused with those who make genuine professions of faith but continue to struggle with a particular sin)

I concede.....

[TaliaKirana]

In my post, I wasn't condoning homosexuality... only asking for a moderation in tone and a reminder that they are people. Not all of them are hardened and arrogant, some are hurting and confused... dying for somebody to show them what real love is. Speak the truth in love, not cruelty... otherwise we look worse than the world.

[Steve53]

Whoa, you can cut the tension on this thread with a knife.

We're seeking clarity - Sometimes that means ironing out a few wrinkles. (How's that for mixed metaphors? {I love doing that!})

Uncle, Uncle......I haven't been beat up this badly since 3rd grade....

No one is trying to beat you up. We're trying to illustrate the error you are making.

My analogy was apt,

Still awaiting the "dozens of verses" in support of same.

....just add in the word homosexuality instead of lying--it is exactly what many ( not all, for some struggle to change) are doing when they place exceptions to their profession of faith. We are indeed saved by faith and not works or deeds--but faith in what? The word faith alone requires an object or tenet to go along with it. As Christians, we are saved by faith--That Jesus Christ is the Son of God and has taken our punishment upon Himself and died for our sins, so that when we die we will be clean in the eyes of God and be welcomed to spend eternity with God.

You don't see the contradiction in the above? Have you considered that some don't immediately see a need to change because of the conditioning of the secular world? You would presume to preclude the actions of the Holy Spirit working sanctification in a person's life?

To go with you down the rabbit hole - A liar - born into a family of liars, indoctrinated and raised to lie all the time knows nothing else and for the liar, lying is normal and a part of his everyday. The liar nonetheless realizes his need for a Savior upon hearing the Gospel message, repents of his "recognized" sinful ways and turns to Christ. Not knowing that lying is a sin (or going with your scenario - refusing to recognize that part of himself as being sinful) does not, in any way whatsoever, preclude that person from faithing on Christ.

Denial of being a sinner or that homosexuality is a sin

Which is it? You can't have this scenario both ways don't you see? If one denies being a sinner, then there is no need for forgiveness and a Savior in their mind. One can be wrong about whether or not a certain behavior is a sin and still come to Christ. Nothing is preventing that person from placing their faith in Christ for salvation.

and saying that you have given your life, through faith, to Christ -- well somehow there seems to be an obvious contradiction to me.

Your construct, your contradiction.

Are they seeking forgiveness for sins through faith or are they going to accept through faith God's gift of grace on all of their lives except for this one behavior which they refuse to give up ( again, not struggle with but refuse and embrace)....

Is it not obvious these Christians are struggling with their sin? The flesh is weak, the heart deceptive above all things. It is no wonder they seek justification for that which plagues their conscience. It doesn't mean their faith in Christ is in vain. Parsing one recurring, unregenerate sin from any other puts the whole world on a slippery slope to conditional salvation and that's not Biblical at all.

anyhow, you guys win........I guess the consensus is that one can ask for God's grace overall for all sins...and then we can secretly decide to hold onto the ones we choose ( again, choice of an embraced lifestyle and not to be confused with those who make genuine professions of faith but continue to struggle with a particular sin)

Yet you persist in framing a difference with no distinction regarding sin. No one has taken the position that belief is a "get out of jail free" card to be played as an insurance against Pascal's Wager. Those types of false converts will have their moment before God. True Christians, and the subjects of the discussion at hand, will join us in the Kingdom of Heaven.

I concede.....

So I guess that means you won't be sharing those "dozens of verses" with us after all?

[HeIsEnough]

anyhow, you guys win........I guess the consensus is that one can ask for God's grace overall for all sins...and then we can secretly decide to hold onto the ones we choose ( again, choice of an embraced lifestyle and not to be confused with those who make genuine professions of faith but continue to struggle with a particular sin)

I concede.....

I'd answer, but I don't know which post (giving the exact idea you propose) or whom you are referring to because I don't see anyone saying what you claim. I see you taking what has been stated and making assumptions, and a big red herring and a little martyrdom in your post. You can do that, but its not persuasive in the least.
As the scriptures say, grace is not a license to sin, the condemnation for that teaching is deserved and will be shown for what it is.

Believers struggle with sin, whatever flavor. I won't condemn one who struggles with something I don't struggle with. The flesh is the flesh, you'll drag that thing around the rest of your natural life, and it will raise its ugly head at times, but the scriptures give us the remedies for these things.

[jackson64]

Hi Steve..how about 1 John 3:7-10 for a big starter?




In Matthew 18:21-22, we read, "Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, ‘Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?’ Jesus answered, ‘I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.’” Peter was probably thinking that he was being generous. Rather than repay a person who had committed a sin against him with equal retribution, Peter suggested giving the brother some leeway, say, up to seven times. But the eighth time, forgiveness and grace would run out. But Christ challenged the rules of Peter’s suggested economy of grace by saying that forgiveness is infinite for those who are truly seeking it. This is only possible because of the infinite grace of God which is made possible through the shed blood of Christ on the cross. Because of Christ’s forgiving power, we can always be made clean after we sin if we humbly seek it.

At the same time, it must be noted that it is not biblical for a person to sin habitually and continually as a lifestyleand still be a believer (1 John 3:8-9). This is why Paul admonishes us to “examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Corinthians 13:5). As Christians, we do stumble, but we do not live a lifestyle of continual, unrepentant sin. All of us have weaknesses and can fall into sin, even if we don’t want to. Even the apostle Paul did what he didn’t want to do because of the sin at work in his body (Romans 7:15). Like Paul, the response of the believer is to hate the sin, repent of it and ask for divine grace to overcome it (Romans 7:24-25). Although we need not fall because of God’s sufficient grace, sometimes we do because we rely upon our insufficient strength. When our faith grows weak and like Peter, we deny our Lord in word or in life, even then there is still a chance to repent and be forgiven of our sin.

another for you from Galataians 20:19 about being crucified with Christ...........

When we are crucified with Christ by faith in Him, we are to completely surrender every selfish desire and ambition to the perfect will of God. Self promotion and self pleasing desires are the greatest obstacle between man and salvation because it is the nature of man to want to please himself, and this self recognition is a building block for sin. All sin erupts from the desire to please self, and this is what must be crucified with Christ in surrender to the will of God before salvation can bear fruit. This, as Paul attests, is an ongoing process because the spirit which has been crucified with Christ still resides within in the flesh which is still very much alive (Romans 7:18-25).

Man cannot overcome his inherited sinful nature on his own and needs the power and assistance of the Holy Spirit to make this happen, but the surrender of his own will to that of God’s will is essential for elimination of his own desire’s powerful motivation and enslavement. This is part of repentance. True repentance is not just asking for forgiveness of sin, but is also a willingness and desire for change that conforms to the will of God. It is surrender of one’s own control and will to the power and will of the Holy Spirit that that is the beginning of being crucified with Christ.

And truly Steve..I could go on and on like this..how about knowing them by their fruits? quite a few more verses there.......
Here are a few more of many examples in the Bible, and having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a person cannot CHOOSE to act sinfully or embrace a sinful lifestyle without grieving the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30; Galatians 5:16), we are expected to be wise in this regard (Romans 6:11-14; Ephesians 5:5, 11).

I hope this has helped clarify the issue for you a bit from God's own word. God bless you and keep you and may the Holy Spirit within you continue to guide you in these confusing and controversial issues....


{Mod Edit} http://www.gotquestions.org/forgive-same-sin.html and http://www.gotquestions.org/crucified-with-Christ.html quoted above [Mod Edit}

[HeIsEnough]

However, if a true Christian who is 'homosexual' doesn't remain celibate is giving into sin and must ask forgiveness or else they are not grasping an important part of Christianity.

What of a liar (we lie to ourselves in how much we lie), a covetous person (lots of those around), someone who likes money a little too much (but naturally cannot see they worship money, actually), someone who lusts (lust can be very subtle for men) after every pretty woman.

I really can go on and on, sooner or later, you'll find one that will condemn you thoroughly and completely.

A man surely can repent of each and every one of these, and yet still be burdened by each and every one of these. I've lived life as a believer, and I know what life is about and what men struggle with, I'm not fooled by puritan men.

It is a very subtle thing to look upon one and not see this struggle, yet they can appear to be full of sin. I'm not trying to argue with you, just responding to the idea in debate, I'm just offering things that condemn us all if we don't see how to rightly judge, especially judging someones salvation by their outward acts. Its easy to say believers should do such and such, I say the same things, but I also know I fall short, even on the things I've once confessed. We offer that confession to men, one that does not give a license to sin, but makes sober judgment upon ourselves, we do well to judge ourselves first. The world can see we are serious and not actors.

[kristine]

As long as it is clear that they are saved just as every other sin is saved; by grace through faith, not through stopping a particular sin. Paul goes on in Romans to explain how each and everyone of us is filthy and unrighteous without Christ, right after Romans 1, we have Romans 2 (with no break between them in the original) Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

There are saved "homosexuals" just as there are saved "gluttons" and "adulterers" and "liars" etc.... Salvation first, sanctification second. Salvation is affected by God, and so is Sanctification. Our "job" is to yield and to trust. Our job as far as others, is to teach about sin, and then about Jesus' power to save, and to remove us our from under the curse of the law, which is what removes the labels that we all deserve. We call sin, sin, and we call grace, grace, and teach about Salvation, and the walk and process of sanctification, making the difference between the two clear.

Those that say homosexual acts are not sinful are wrong. Those that teach that God hates homosexuals, or that homosexuals cannot be saved, are wrong. We have a God that while we were yet sinners, He died for us, to give us the only way of removing the stain of sin, and getting us out from under the law so there is no more condemnation against us. I continually stand amazed at that fact. It is never ever a justification to flaunt sin, or to sin so that grace will abound.

[Crazed for Jesus]

What of a liar (we lie to ourselves in how much we lie), a covetous person (lots of those around), someone who likes money a little too much (but naturally cannot see they worship money, actually), someone who lusts (lust can be very subtle for men) after every pretty woman.

I really can go on and on, sooner or later, you'll find one that will condemn you thoroughly and completely.

A man surely can repent of each and every one of these, and yet still be burdened by each and every one of these. I've lived life as a believer, and I know what life is about and what men struggle with, I'm not fooled by puritan men.

It is a very subtle thing to look upon one and not see this struggle, yet they can appear to be full of sin. I'm not trying to argue with you, just responding to the idea in debate, I'm just offering things that condemn us all if we don't see how to rightly judge, especially judging someones salvation by their outward acts. Its easy to say believers should do such and such, I say the same things, but I also know I fall short, even on the things I've once confessed. We offer that confession to men, one that does not give a license to sin, but makes sober judgment upon ourselves, we do well to judge ourselves first. The world can see we are serious and not actors.

Maybe I lacked clarity ( and for that I am sorry); but what I meant to say that if a Christian asks for forgiveness for a sin but makes no attempt to stop sinning is seriously missing the point in terms of forgiveness.

[Steve53]

Hi Steve..how about 1 John 3:7-10 for a big starter?

I asked for verses supporting your position used in proper context. I see you haven't met that criteria. We are talking about Christian brothers and sisters. We are not talking about, nor have we been talking about, persons who have not truly sought God's grace and salvation through faith in Christ.

In Matthew 18:21-22, we read, "Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, ‘Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?’ Jesus answered, ‘I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.’” Peter was probably thinking that he was being generous. Rather than repay a person who had committed a sin against him with equal retribution, Peter suggested giving the brother some leeway, say, up to seven times. But the eighth time, forgiveness and grace would run out. But Christ challenged the rules of Peter’s suggested economy of grace by saying that forgiveness is infinite for those who are truly seeking it. This is only possible because of the infinite grace of God which is made possible through the shed blood of Christ on the cross. Because of Christ’s forgiving power, we can always be made clean after we sin if we humbly seek it.

At the same time, it must be noted that it is not biblical for a person to sin habitually and continually as a lifestyleand still be a believer (1 John 3:8-9). This is why Paul admonishes us to “examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Corinthians 13:5). As Christians, we do stumble, but we do not live a lifestyle of continual, unrepentant sin. All of us have weaknesses and can fall into sin, even if we don’t want to. Even the apostle Paul did what he didn’t want to do because of the sin at work in his body (Romans 7:15). Like Paul, the response of the believer is to hate the sin, repent of it and ask for divine grace to overcome it (Romans 7:24-25). Although we need not fall because of God’s sufficient grace, sometimes we do because we rely upon our insufficient strength. When our faith grows weak and like Peter, we deny our Lord in word or in life, even then there is still a chance to repent and be forgiven of our sin.

When plagiarizing copying and pasting from online sources please give attribution. The above quote is from http://www.gotquestions.org/forgive-same-sin.html. Similar phrasing is also found here - http://www.relevantbibleteaching.com...c_id=140001239 - and that piece contains the following:

It is not Biblical to suppose that a person could sin habitually and continually as a lifestyle and still be a believer (1 John 3:8-9), though it is possible to give in to the ways of the world so extensively that we make shipwreck of our faith (1 Timothy 1:18-20).

The bolded portion of the quote above being the only point we're making here now (and have been making all along in this thread).

another for you from Galataians 20:19 about being crucified with Christ...........

Let me guess - You meant - Galatians 2:20 perhaps? Don't ignore the context - Galatians 2:19-21

When we are crucified with Christ by faith in Him, we are to completely surrender every selfish desire and ambition to the perfect will of God. Self promotion and self pleasing desires are the greatest obstacle between man and salvation because it is the nature of man to want to please himself, and this self recognition is a building block for sin. All sin erupts from the desire to please self, and this is what must be crucified with Christ in surrender to the will of God before salvation can bear fruit. This, as Paul attests, is an ongoing process because the spirit which has been crucified with Christ still resides within in the flesh which is still very much alive (Romans 7:18-25).

Man cannot overcome his inherited sinful nature on his own and needs the power and assistance of the Holy Spirit to make this happen, but the surrender of his own will to that of God’s will is essential for elimination of his own desire’s powerful motivation and enslavement. This is part of repentance. True repentance is not just asking for forgiveness of sin, but is also a willingness and desire for change that conforms to the will of God. It is surrender of one’s own control and will to the power and will of the Holy Spirit that that is the beginning of being crucified with Christ.

Again - When copying and pasting from another online source, attribution must be given. In this latest example above, the source is - http://www.gotquestions.org/crucified-with-Christ.html - and the article does not mention conditional salvation in the manner you posit.

And truly Steve..I could go on and on like this..how about knowing them by their fruits? quite a few more verses there.......
Here are a few more of many examples in the Bible, and having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a person cannot CHOOSE to act sinfully or embrace a sinful lifestyle without grieving the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30; Galatians 5:16), we are expected to be wise in this regard (Romans 6:11-14; Ephesians 5:5, 11).

Mere tangents given the topical context of this thread and my request for specific verses in support of your view. If you like, you can start another thread on those topics but you might find these threads helpful and more in line with the thrust of your position http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1581...easy+believism and http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1514...easy+believism because they deal with "easy believism" as well.

I hope this has helped clarify the issue for you a bit from God's own word. God bless you and keep you and may the Holy Spirit within you continue to guide you in these confusing and controversial issues....

Your sarcasm has not gone unnoticed but the irony of who is confused has caused me to smile in spite of myself. You said you were done and had conceded yet you argue still? You've started a dialog you can't support in your own words, nor can you cite contextually sound Biblical verses that support your view directly. The nearest you can come is tangential at best and really when it's all boiled down you continue to argue against a position no one has taken.
There is no controversy on this end, and no one else is confused.
Do read the threads I listed above.
Please refrain from sidetracking this thread any further.

[Steve53]

... if a Christian asks for forgiveness for a sin but makes no attempt to stop sinning is seriously missing the point in terms of forgiveness.

I made a post earlier in this thread addressing that point.

Sin is precisely what we're talking about. Aren't all truly born again Christians saved sinners? It matters not what one's sins are. All sins are "such a grievance" before God. Without Christ the sins of this world don't seem to weigh as much. With Christ, the weight of our sin is a burden we cannot carry lightly. The unrepentant "lifestyle" sinner seeks to assuage the guilty feelings the Holy Spirit places upon their hearts by seeking acceptance in the secular world. As if that can somehow drown out the still small voice.... To them, I say, 'good luck with that'. The Lord will not stop the sanctification process He starts when one becomes a Christian. True happiness will elude the "lifestyle" sinner this side of Heaven as long as they remain willfully blind and ignorant of that which God has clearly declared to be sinful.

The "willfully blind and ignorant" part of my post I don't think can be stressed enough. The lifestyle sinner of today has, in many ways, become so conditioned to the depraved state of the world that what we all see as black and white, they see as shades of gray and 'therefore' they say, there's room for "reinterpretation". The Holy Spirit within them stirs and disquiets their true inner peace. He will continue that work as long as the corruptible flesh clothes their souls.

Praise the Lord for His promise to rid us all of the corruptible! 1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[HeIsEnough]

Maybe I lacked clarity ( and for that I am sorry); but what I meant to say that if a Christian asks for forgiveness for a sin but makes no attempt to stop sinning is seriously missing the point in terms of forgiveness.

Is there any that have come to the cross and not condemned themselves? I don't think its possible. A true salvation experience obviously has fruit, else it never was. The extent and the makeup of the fruit is for the Lord to weigh. This debate is like weighing others. Conversations like these always end up with the extreme example, one who the power of God has no effect. I can testify to His power, I think it will change things, you won't come to the cross and not be changed forever, it just doesn't happen. But to all those who "actually" put their trust in Christ, however feeble they are, they are also guaranteed life by that same power of God. Its free to the sinner, even the worst ones, else it won't be there for me, nor should it be perhaps. Homosexuals trying to come to the Lord need our help and our prayers, they need to be told that their sins can be forgiven, and to walk in the newness of life that God provides for them. We don't accept their sin, any more than we accept any other sin. I've heard enough of them relate the 'leper' aspect of their experience with the people of God, and that just should not be.

[LovemyLord]

Some thoughts:

We are saved by the finished work of Christ on our behalf. End of discussion. When a person repents "changes their mind" about their sin state, and their need for Christ, they are from that time forward born again. In the family of God. Our gracious, merciful God has made it that simple. We cannot front load OR back load the gospel with works. To front load it is to say we have to work to be saved, and to back load it is to say we have to do something to maintain or "prove" that we are saved. Any of this takes away from the gospel of Christ's FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS. Simple.

Now about being apart of God's family. Now that we are in His family, there are some who choose to obey Jesus, and some choose not to. Simply put there are just things we as humans don't always want to give up. For some it might be sexual sin, for others it's overeating and for others it's gossip and being idle. We all know what our particular thing is that we either struggle with and in some cases give up the struggle and just give into. (it was noted that the Corinthians are a good example of brothers and sisters in Christ in this particular state.) God deals with His family about these matters. We've seen examples of people losing their lives due to sin they won't give up. These matters also have an effect on our reward at the Judgement Seat of Christ. If we are "living by the flesh" rather than "according to the Spirit" (and scripture makes clear we have a choice, proven by the fact that it has to be stated over and over to remind us of what we SHOULD do. If it was something we all would automatically do, it wouldn't have to be stated, urged and exhorted over and over to us.) The instructions about godly living is family business. Never meant to keep us always going back questioning our salvation, but always there to push us forward in becoming more like Christ so that when we stand before Him we are unashamed. Sanctification.

The foundation is SURE. And only Jesus lays it down. I Cor 3:11 "For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Simple.

But about family matters: I Cor 3:12-15 "Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw- each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

I want to ask a question to those of you who think someone "living in sin" who has also happened to put their trust in Christ's finished work, "was probably never saved" To those who think this, I have a logical question to ask...If you are talking to someone, say a Christian who continues to practice a sexual sin, and in your mind they must not be saved, but they attest that their confidence is in Christ's finished work for salvation. How do you now witness to this person if you think they aren't saved, what gospel do you now share with them. They already believe in Jesus Christ, so in thinking they are not saved, how will you then try to convince them to be saved other than what they already believe? See...you'd have to change the gospel at this point. They already believe, scripture says this is the only means to justification, and yet you think they cannot possibly be saved because the way their life looks...what they are doing or not doing. There is no other gospel left other than what they already have put their faith in. This is why I think it would be more fruitful to exhort and encourage this brother/sister in Christ to godly living. Deal with them as a family member and show them what the scripture says. Don't bring into question their salvation for it was never Christ's intention for people to doubt His firm foundation. In fact Hebrews 5:11-6:3 makes it clear that anyone who keeps going over and over again the elementary teachings of Christ cannot move onto maturity. Hebrews 5:14 "But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment TRAINED by constant practice to DISTINGUISH GOOD FROM EVIL." and then Hebrews 6:1 says "THEREFORE (in light of what was just stated), let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance......" Every time we doubt Christ's finished work it paralyzes us from being able to move onto maturity, and this is precisely where Satan wants us. Maturity by definition (Hebrews 5:14 IS distinguishing good from evil), this is why going around in circles about ones salvation can never produce fruit and a changed life. They remain infants. (and hence no wonder why they continue in sin because they aren't able to distinguish between good and evil.)

I would suggest that when we see one who calls himself a brother/sister in Christ in sin, we should simply do what the scripture says and : James 5:19 "My BROTHERS, if anyone among YOU wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul (life) from death (talking about physical death) and will cover a multitude of sins." This indicates that if we go after a brother who is living in sin, we might be able to even save their life. (they are already "saved" given the fact that we are talking about a "brother" specified by the scripture.) Recall that 1 John 5:16-17 states there is sin that leads to physical death. And note that "soul" and "life" are interchangeable. Not referring to "eternal life" but simply "life." As in: I almost got hit by a car and someone pushed me out of the way and "saved my life".

Galatians 6:1 "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted."

The matter of a brother /sister in Christ who is living in sin, is family business, not questioning the foundation laid by Christ Himself.

[Berk60]

My BIL is gay and has a live in BF.... I love by BIL he would do anything for anyone and is just an outstanding person, but i do not condone his lifestyle. He knows that I am very involved in my church and that I have strong biblical beliefs, but I am guilty of not coming out and telling him that I do not believe in his lifestyle, I am afraid of the family war it will cause, but there is a tugging at my heart for me to speak to them about this issues.
But here is my question, according to the bible it is a sin to be gay, but we are all sinners, so will gay people not make it into heaven? The way I see being gay is it is like an alcoholic addiction some can overcome it and some are just not able to kick the addiction but they truly love the Lord....I mean my sin in life that I struggle with every day is gossip, while I have asked the Lord for guidance and He has provided it for I keep my tongue quiet a majority of the time but I wll occassionaly give in to that temptation, do I feel that will keep me out of Heaven, no I dont because I know that Jesus died for my sins, and I know the He sent his one an only Son for me, does any of this make sense?

I think you answered your own question if gay people will go to heaven. Since you have come to Christ as your savior you still have struggle with gossip but you should find that you are becoming more sensitive recognizing it in your life. With this hyper-sensitivity to sin it convicts us of it and we start to change our minds about it. We stop justifying it and confess it to our Lord. We find that walking in the spirit daily leaves no room for it.
So, in short we should see a weaning of the sin and a willingness to abandon it completely. This repentance is the only evidence in the life of a sinner, gay or straight, that can be seen as fruits of their salvation. If it is present you can bet they will be in Heaven.

[carol1948]

Some thoughts:

We are saved by the finished work of Christ on our behalf. End of discussion. When a person repents "changes their mind" about their sin state, and their need for Christ, they are from that time forward born again. In the family of God. Our gracious, merciful God has made it that simple. We cannot front load OR back load the gospel with works. To front load it is to say we have to work to be saved, and to back load it is to say we have to do something to maintain or "prove" that we are saved. Any of this takes away from the gospel of Christ's FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS. Simple.

Now about being apart of God's family. Now that we are in His family, there are some who choose to obey Jesus, and some choose not to. Simply put there are just things we as humans don't always want to give up. For some it might be sexual sin, for others it's overeating and for others it's gossip and being idle. We all know what our particular thing is that we either struggle with and in some cases give up the struggle and just give into. (it was noted that the Corinthians are a good example of brothers and sisters in Christ in this particular state.) God deals with His family about these matters. We've seen examples of people losing their lives due to sin they won't give up. These matters also have an effect on our reward at the Judgement Seat of Christ. If we are "living by the flesh" rather than "according to the Spirit" (and scripture makes clear we have a choice, proven by the fact that it has to be stated over and over to remind us of what we SHOULD do. If it was something we all would automatically do, it wouldn't have to be stated, urged and exhorted over and over to us.) The instructions about godly living is family business. Never meant to keep us always going back questioning our salvation, but always there to push us forward in becoming more like Christ so that when we stand before Him we are unashamed. Sanctification.

The foundation is SURE. And only Jesus lays it down. I Cor 3:11 "For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Simple.

But about family matters: I Cor 3:12-15 "Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw- each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

I want to ask a question to those of you who think someone "living in sin" who has also happened to put their trust in Christ's finished work, "was probably never saved" To those who think this, I have a logical question to ask...If you are talking to someone, say a Christian who continues to practice a sexual sin, and in your mind they must not be saved, but they attest that their confidence is in Christ's finished work for salvation. How do you now witness to this person if you think they aren't saved, what gospel do you now share with them. They already believe in Jesus Christ, so in thinking they are not saved, how will you then try to convince them to be saved other than what they already believe? See...you'd have to change the gospel at this point. They already believe, scripture says this is the only means to justification, and yet you think they cannot possibly be saved because the way their life looks...what they are doing or not doing. There is no other gospel left other than what they already have put their faith in. This is why I think it would be more fruitful to exhort and encourage this brother/sister in Christ to godly living. Deal with them as a family member and show them what the scripture says. Don't bring into question their salvation for it was never Christ's intention for people to doubt His firm foundation. In fact Hebrews 5:11-6:3 makes it clear that anyone who keeps going over and over again the elementary teachings of Christ cannot move onto maturity. Hebrews 5:14 "But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment TRAINED by constant practice to DISTINGUISH GOOD FROM EVIL." and then Hebrews 6:1 says "THEREFORE (in light of what was just stated), let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance......" Every time we doubt Christ's finished work it paralyzes us from being able to move onto maturity, and this is precisely where Satan wants us. Maturity by definition (Hebrews 5:14 IS distinguishing good from evil), this is why going around in circles about ones salvation can never produce fruit and a changed life. They remain infants. (and hence no wonder why they continue in sin because they aren't able to distinguish between good and evil.)

I would suggest that when we see one who calls himself a brother/sister in Christ in sin, we should simply do what the scripture says and : James 5:19 "My BROTHERS, if anyone among YOU wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul (life) from death (talking about physical death) and will cover a multitude of sins." This indicates that if we go after a brother who is living in sin, we might be able to even save their life. (they are already "saved" given the fact that we are talking about a "brother" specified by the scripture.) Recall that 1 John 5:16-17 states there is sin that leads to physical death. And note that "soul" and "life" are interchangeable. Not referring to "eternal life" but simply "life." As in: I almost got hit by a car and someone pushed me out of the way and "saved my life".

Galatians 6:1 "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted."

The matter of a brother /sister in Christ who is living in sin, is family business, not questioning the foundation laid by Christ Himself.

A situation of a sister in Christ going into an adulterous situation willing and knowingly has occurred to me. When this sister friend asked me what I thought about it I told her I could not condone or wish her well in it because it was contrary to God's Word and she knew it. I simply suggested she talk to Jesus about it. When (as happened) she said she had talked to Jesus and He is okay with it [because they were in love], then I reminded her what the Bible says, that He doesn't change and suggested she keep praying about it. Regardless of what I may think I would never tell a professing Christian he/she wasn't saved because of something I may see in his/her life. Though I am as confident as I can be that this sister friend is truly saved, I'm sure if I didn't know her well I might wonder. None of us can ever say for certain what has occurred in another person's heart with regard to his/her relationship with Jesus. All we can go on is what we see and hear from that person and IMO our reaction should be scripturally sound, firm and based in love. I don't think I would respond any differently to a person who is a professing Christian and a practicing homosexual if I knew any. (Please remember that when I mention professing Christians I am only talking about people who have come to the Jesus we know and are the ones we describe as born-again. I only mention this because there are some cult members who identify themselves as Christians but have a different Jesus).

[HeIsEnough]

Some thoughts: We are saved by the finished work of Christ on our behalf. End of discussion. When a person repents "changes their mind" about their sin state, and their need for Christ, they are from that time forward born again. In the family of God. Our gracious, merciful God has made it that simple. We cannot front load OR back load the gospel with works. To front load it is to say we have to work to be saved, and to back load it is to say we have to do something to maintain or "prove" that we are saved. Any of this takes away from the gospel of Christ's FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS. Simple. Now about being apart of God's family. Now that we are in His family, there are some who choose to obey Jesus, and some choose not to. Simply put there are just things we as humans don't always want to give up. For some it might be sexual sin, for others it's overeating and for others it's gossip and being idle. We all know what our particular thing is that we either struggle with and in some cases give up the struggle and just give into. (it was noted that the Corinthians are a good example of brothers and sisters in Christ in this particular state.) God deals with His family about these matters. We've seen examples of people losing their lives due to sin they won't give up. These matters also have an effect on our reward at the Judgement Seat of Christ. If we are "living by the flesh" rather than "according to the Spirit" (and scripture makes clear we have a choice, proven by the fact that it has to be stated over and over to remind us of what we SHOULD do. If it was something we all would automatically do, it wouldn't have to be stated, urged and exhorted over and over to us.) The instructions about godly living is family business. Never meant to keep us always going back questioning our salvation, but always there to push us forward in becoming more like Christ so that when we stand before Him we are unashamed. Sanctification. The foundation is SURE. And only Jesus lays it down. I Cor 3:11 "For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Simple.But about family matters: I Cor 3:12-15 "Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw- each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."I want to ask a question to those of you who think someone "living in sin" who has also happened to put their trust in Christ's finished work, "was probably never saved" To those who think this, I have a logical question to ask...If you are talking to someone, say a Christian who continues to practice a sexual sin, and in your mind they must not be saved, but they attest that their confidence is in Christ's finished work for salvation. How do you now witness to this person if you think they aren't saved, what gospel do you now share with them. They already believe in Jesus Christ, so in thinking they are not saved, how will you then try to convince them to be saved other than what they already believe? See...you'd have to change the gospel at this point. They already believe, scripture says this is the only means to justification, and yet you think they cannot possibly be saved because the way their life looks...what they are doing or not doing. There is no other gospel left other than what they already have put their faith in. This is why I think it would be more fruitful to exhort and encourage this brother/sister in Christ to godly living. Deal with them as a family member and show them what the scripture says. Don't bring into question their salvation for it was never Christ's intention for people to doubt His firm foundation. In fact Hebrews 5:11-6:3 makes it clear that anyone who keeps going over and over again the elementary teachings of Christ cannot move onto maturity. Hebrews 5:14 "But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment TRAINED by constant practice to DISTINGUISH GOOD FROM EVIL." and then Hebrews 6:1 says "THEREFORE (in light of what was just stated), let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance......" Every time we doubt Christ's finished work it paralyzes us from being able to move onto maturity, and this is precisely where Satan wants us. Maturity by definition (Hebrews 5:14 IS distinguishing good from evil), this is why going around in circles about ones salvation can never produce fruit and a changed life. They remain infants. (and hence no wonder why they continue in sin because they aren't able to distinguish between good and evil.) I would suggest that when we see one who calls himself a brother/sister in Christ in sin, we should simply do what the scripture says and : James 5:19 "My BROTHERS, if anyone among YOU wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul (life) from death (talking about physical death) and will cover a multitude of sins." This indicates that if we go after a brother who is living in sin, we might be able to even save their life. (they are already "saved" given the fact that we are talking about a "brother" specified by the scripture.) Recall that 1 John 5:16-17 states there is sin that leads to physical death. And note that "soul" and "life" are interchangeable. Not referring to "eternal life" but simply "life." As in: I almost got hit by a car and someone pushed me out of the way and "saved my life".Galatians 6:1 "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted." The matter of a brother /sister in Christ who is living in sin, is family business, not questioning the foundation laid by Christ Himself.

Good thought provoking post.I would say repentance is a definitive term in this case. Can one repent part way?

[LovemyLord]

Good thought provoking post.I would say repentance is a definitive term in this case. Can one repent part way?

Exactly. And if you look at Hebrews 6:1, the elementary teaching of repentance is defined: "not laying again the foundation of repentance FROM dead works and of FAITH TOWARD God.." So it's turning away from the thinking of works based salvation to realizing salvation is by faith alone. So one either believes this or they don't. So in that sense, there is no room for half way. This doesn't by definition mean one won't sin again, or even have times of totally giving in to sin lifestyles. It means KNOWING that one cannot save themselves and that Jesus took care of that issue. The godly living is a family matter that God deals with us on in His timing thru the process of sanctification by the power of the Holy Spirit. But no one can freely begin that journey until they are convinced of the firm foundation Christ laid in their lives. Oh how wonderful it is to be free to move forward and not worry about if one is saved or not.

If I were in a discussion with a homosexual friend who states they understand fully the gospel and believe that they are redeemed by the blood of Jesus and Him alone, by faith alone, but they wanted to somehow justify the homosexual lifestyle as not sin, then it would be important to show thru scripture (in a loving way) that it is a sin and will hinder them from living a life that will produce fruit and prepare them for reward etc...It would be important to encourage this person even while he or she is still sinning to read the Word, which in turn will bring understanding and discernment between what is right and wrong. The Lord will deal with this brother/sister about this matter. I would wager that all of us have sin in our lives we'd like to somehow justify as not sin. I know for me, I have been a Christian for 30+ years and am just now convicted that I am a lazy person. God has dealt with so much in my life as a Christian over the years....some sin I easily surrendered and gave up and others I tried to justify and at times even really believed certain things weren't sin until much later in my walk as the Lord revealed them to me. So when the homosexual person comes to Christ, lets trust the Holy Spirit to do His work in their lives, and not keep them going around in circles about the elementary teachings of Christ, but encourage them onto maturity...getting to that point of discerning right from wrong.

[Kliska]

Some thoughts:

We are saved by the finished work of Christ on our behalf. End of discussion. When a person repents "changes their mind" about their sin state, and their need for Christ, they are from that time forward born again. In the family of God. Our gracious, merciful God has made it that simple. We cannot front load OR back load the gospel with works. To front load it is to say we have to work to be saved, and to back load it is to say we have to do something to maintain or "prove" that we are saved. Any of this takes away from the gospel of Christ's FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS. Simple.

Now about being apart of God's family. Now that we are in His family, there are some who choose to obey Jesus, and some choose not to. Simply put there are just things we as humans don't always want to give up. For some it might be sexual sin, for others it's overeating and for others it's gossip and being idle. We all know what our particular thing is that we either struggle with and in some cases give up the struggle and just give into. (it was noted that the Corinthians are a good example of brothers and sisters in Christ in this particular state.) God deals with His family about these matters. We've seen examples of people losing their lives due to sin they won't give up. These matters also have an effect on our reward at the Judgement Seat of Christ. If we are "living by the flesh" rather than "according to the Spirit" (and scripture makes clear we have a choice, proven by the fact that it has to be stated over and over to remind us of what we SHOULD do. If it was something we all would automatically do, it wouldn't have to be stated, urged and exhorted over and over to us.) The instructions about godly living is family business. Never meant to keep us always going back questioning our salvation, but always there to push us forward in becoming more like Christ so that when we stand before Him we are unashamed. Sanctification.

The foundation is SURE. And only Jesus lays it down. I Cor 3:11 "For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Simple.

But about family matters: I Cor 3:12-15 "Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw- each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

I want to ask a question to those of you who think someone "living in sin" who has also happened to put their trust in Christ's finished work, "was probably never saved" To those who think this, I have a logical question to ask...If you are talking to someone, say a Christian who continues to practice a sexual sin, and in your mind they must not be saved, but they attest that their confidence is in Christ's finished work for salvation. How do you now witness to this person if you think they aren't saved, what gospel do you now share with them. They already believe in Jesus Christ, so in thinking they are not saved, how will you then try to convince them to be saved other than what they already believe? See...you'd have to change the gospel at this point. They already believe, scripture says this is the only means to justification, and yet you think they cannot possibly be saved because the way their life looks...what they are doing or not doing. There is no other gospel left other than what they already have put their faith in. This is why I think it would be more fruitful to exhort and encourage this brother/sister in Christ to godly living. Deal with them as a family member and show them what the scripture says. Don't bring into question their salvation for it was never Christ's intention for people to doubt His firm foundation. In fact Hebrews 5:11-6:3 makes it clear that anyone who keeps going over and over again the elementary teachings of Christ cannot move onto maturity. Hebrews 5:14 "But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment TRAINED by constant practice to DISTINGUISH GOOD FROM EVIL." and then Hebrews 6:1 says "THEREFORE (in light of what was just stated), let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance......" Every time we doubt Christ's finished work it paralyzes us from being able to move onto maturity, and this is precisely where Satan wants us. Maturity by definition (Hebrews 5:14 IS distinguishing good from evil), this is why going around in circles about ones salvation can never produce fruit and a changed life. They remain infants. (and hence no wonder why they continue in sin because they aren't able to distinguish between good and evil.)

I would suggest that when we see one who calls himself a brother/sister in Christ in sin, we should simply do what the scripture says and : James 5:19 "My BROTHERS, if anyone among YOU wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul (life) from death (talking about physical death) and will cover a multitude of sins." This indicates that if we go after a brother who is living in sin, we might be able to even save their life. (they are already "saved" given the fact that we are talking about a "brother" specified by the scripture.) Recall that 1 John 5:16-17 states there is sin that leads to physical death. And note that "soul" and "life" are interchangeable. Not referring to "eternal life" but simply "life." As in: I almost got hit by a car and someone pushed me out of the way and "saved my life".

Galatians 6:1 "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted."

The matter of a brother /sister in Christ who is living in sin, is family business, not questioning the foundation laid by Christ Himself.

I want to give a non-hypothetical scenario to further the ideas in this thread. This is about me, and so it is non-hypothetical and firsthand. I had to grin at Steve's post a little up thread about the lying scenario. When I was a youngling, I could lie like no one's business. I was the perfect little liar. Now, I never really lied about big things or important things, but I could manipulate people like crazy. This was when I was 4, 5, 6, years old, and onward. Many times it was "white lies," many times it was over amusing or funny things, and my lying was never a type that would harm others at all, but lying is from the Father of lies, regardless of what we tell ourselves.

Well, I was well and truly saved at a very young age, around 6 or so. I was in full understanding that I was a sinner, and I fully acknowledged Jesus, trusted in Him, cried out to Him, etc... However, my lying ability was an amusement to my believing family, and some in my family would even say things like, "if so-and-so calls, tell 'em I'm not home." Us kids were expected to obey that, and we didn't see anything wrong with it. Many people don't. That is telling a willful lie. Manipulation often involves lying. Protecting our selves often involves lying. So, I was good at it, and my family even joked I should be a lawyer, because even if I didn't outright lie I could manipulate the truth. Of course I knew LYING-lying was wrong, but what I did was not thought of lying either by myself or by my family, friends, or any other human I had ran into.

I know for a 100% fact that I was saved at that young age, again, around 6 or so, yet my blase attitude about bending the truth remained, for obvious and not so obvious reasons. Again, a LOT of people, including believers, would consider what I would do part of everyday human life, and it is, but that does not change the fact of a lie; telling an untruth. Then one day, I told a little lie that would harm no one and covered up some type of insecurity in myself...and something clicked in side of me, I felt just a little nudge and I realized that all those "small" white lies are still lies. In that moment I prayed God would help me change. I was around 23 years old. So, I had lived at least 17 years as a full-fledged believer never giving those little lies a second thought. The Holy Spirit moved me from within at exactly the right moment for me to have a realization and to desire to change it.

Now, some here would seemingly deny my salvation when I was little because, at the time, I didn't realize lying, even white lying, is a sin. It took me 17 whole years to come to that realization, and it totally changed my interactions with others. If someone tells me, "tell 'em I'm not here." I look at them and politely tell them no, or that they'd better leave then, because I'm not lying about it, it drives everyone nuts . Now, what if I had been struck by a car when I was 19? Would my sins of lying not be forgiven because I had not come to the realization of their sinfulness yet?. The answer is no. My sin, known and unknown, admitted and unadmitted, was covered, paid for and washed away upon my faithing on Christ when I was a little kid. How do I know that? That is what scripture tells me, AND the Spirit testifies to my spirit. Plus, there's no way I would have stopped my lying if the Spirit hadn't been in me to point it out.

Lying is an abomination. I was a saved liar for years upon years. If you don't believe that , if you do believe that, then it is equally clear that sin is sin; regardless of the sin, you can be a saved __________ fill-in-the-blank. Praise God for His grace, mercy, and patience!

[kissimmeeman]

I wanted to apologize to those that took offense at the tone I used in debating about this topic. I could have gotten my point across without using the condescending tone that I used. Just that night I read in the Bible about talking to other with kindness and generosity but with a bit of saltiness. I didn't need to stoke the fires with additive words to incite anger. I suppose I was really trying to get the points of the Bible across but I should have approached it from a kind debate rather than I'll show you. Please forgive me.

[Jacinth]

I know for a 100% fact that I was saved at that young age, again, around 6 or so, yet my blase attitude about bending the truth remained, for obvious and not so obvious reasons.

My experience is almost identical; saved at a young age, saved parents, the lying thing, only to mine add being around drunk people throughout my teen years, thinking it was just part of having a good time (I'd only personally been drunk maybe twice in my life), and "drunkards" in the bible were just people who were alcoholic-every-day-get-drunk-ers, 4 or 5 times a year weren't so bad...
Many other "small" habits can be thrown in.
And I get the clicks, too. This is when a lot of separation from "old buddies" comes in.

I questioned my salvation when I was around 20 b/c of a life of unrepentant worldliness, until I was reassured by Scripture only believing Jesus died paying for my sins and rose again is what is required.