Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Need advice in explaining saints to my Catholic sister

  1. #1
    zookeeper Guest

    Default Need advice in explaining saints to my Catholic sister

    I had another heated debate with my Catholic sister today. (She is trying to convince me to return to catholicism.) Long story short... I tried to explain to her that prayers to saints go unheard because the only way to the Father is through the Son. I also tried to tell her that WE are the saints, not dead people who are appointed as saints by the Vatican. She said that none of us are worthy to be saints, then she compared her life to "mother" Theresa and said only someone like her (mother Theresa) is worthy to be considered a saint because the rest of us are sinners. Of course we are, and so were the so-called "saints" of the RCC. She ended our phone conversation at that point. I would like to revisit this topic with her. What would be the best approach? When we have these debates I often use Scripture to back up my point. Which passages would be best to help her understand the truth about saints? I want so badly to see my sister freed from the bondage of Rome. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    I'd like to add that anytime I try to point out the flaws of the RCC she immediately becomes defensive and accuses me of Catholic-bashing. She really believes that every other denomination is nothing more than a perverted and watered down version of THE first church, the RCC. She is a firm believer in their man-made traditions. My heart aches for her


    Lord, please help me to find the right words when I try to speak to my sister about you and your Word. I pray that she will be open to hearing the truth, that she will accept it, and that she will follow only you and not the traditions of man

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Shadowlands
    Posts
    8,170

    Default

    Hmmm... honestly I'd focus the conversation on Christ and His righteousness, and then build the case that we are saints, not because of our own righteousness, but because of His... If she is so defensive of the RC, then maybe focusing on Jesus would by-pass those defenses a bit. Passages talking about us being "in Christ" and others that call living believers saints would help in any conversation about the issue.

    Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    705

    Default I would agree with Kliska...

    Getting into an apologetics style debate on the Romanist dogmas of sainthood is pointless. The whole issue is your sisters opinion of Jesus and her acceptance of His sacrifice as FULL payment for her sins.

    Once you get her into Jesus and she accepts what He did as enough it will change who she wants to talk to.

    I know it's a long shot to get this point across to a devoted Roman Catholic. They always want to put the Roman twist on everything. For example, "We are saved by our belief and faith in Jesus". A Roman Catholic would agree but they are not in agreement with what it simply states. Their agreement is with the RC formula and obedience overlaid to that statement. So it isn't just faith in Jesus for our salvation but it is a gateway to religious formulas and trust in the RC manmade evolved system. So. it ends up being faith in a process and the quality of our obedience to the system that saves us instead of just believing in Jesus and His perfect gift. They will just not see the difference without patience and prayer on our part. Lord please open the eyes of the blind.

    If you get the chance to have a heart to heart with your sister, show her the love of Jesus by your joy in Him. It is all about Jesus.

    I got the chance once to help tell a RC about the difference between the RC approach and the Jesus only approach to salvic issues. I got to ask the the following:

    Picture yourself at the foot of the cross. Look up at Jesus as he hangs there in agony, suffering for all the sins of the world, Jesus, your Lord and Savior who has seen the Father turn away for the first time in eternity, giving everything for you. As you look upon Him............How can you say it's not enough?......How can you add to this? ........How can you deserve this?

    There is only one answer, you can't. Once for all time a perfect sacrifice was given to the Father by the only one WORTHY to give the sacrifice. No preist, no High preist, no Pope, Cardinal or King could give to God what was the Messiah's to give.

    No Roman religion can do what only Jesus Christ can do!

    Jeff

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Beautiful Pacific NW
    Posts
    6,552

    Default

    I hear your frustration.Unfortunately one of daughters has gone to RCC because her significant other is RCC. I have tried to talk to her about their beliefs.I told her about praying to the Saints.She said"We do not pray to the Saints we pray with them.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    The United State of Texas
    Posts
    27,728

    Default

    http://www.buzzardhut.net/Catho/24.htm
    The Catechism admonishes members to pray to those who, because of their good works, have been declared by the church to be "saints:"

    "The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives... They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. Their intercession is their most exalted service to God's plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world." Pg. 645, #2683 (See also Pg. 249, #956)

    This chapter must begin by defining the word "saint." Catholicism teaches that a saint is one of a select few who, because of good works while alive, is declared a saint after death:
    "By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God's grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors." Pg. 219, #828

    According to Scripture, however, anyone who is born again by faith in Christ is a saint. Paul wrote to all the saints (Christians) in Rome:
    "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 1:7

    Many other verses express the same truth:
    "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;" Ephesians 3:8

    "...Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints," Jude 1:14

    "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" Ephesians 4:11-12

    (See also Acts 9:13; 9:32; 9:41; 26:10; Romans 8:27; 12:13; 15:25; 15:26; 15:31; 16:2; 16:15; 1 Corinthians 6:1, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Ephesians 1:1, plus dozens of other New Testament references.)

    Why this Doctrine?

    In short, the scenario goes like this. Catholicism discarded the scriptural definition of a "saint" and devised a new one, then instructed members to pray to these unscriptural "saints."

    The question is, why pray to anyone else when the God of the universe is in heaven waiting to hear and answer prayers?

    Are "Saints" Intercessors?

    Supposedly, these so-called saints "intercede with the Father for us." But we have already learned that Jesus Christ is our only intercessor. Therefore, to suggest otherwise is but a man made tradition.

    Here's another interesting Catechism quote concerning saints:
    "Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ..." Pg. 249-250, #957

    According to the Catholic church, praying to saints brings people closer to Christ. However, you will not find this doctrine in Scripture either. It is another tradition of men that neither Jesus nor the Bible ever taught.

    In fact, this practice of communing with the dead treads dangerously close to necromancy, another practice strongly condemned in the Bible. (See Deuteronomy 18:10-12.)

    Conclusion

    The nagging question you must answer here is: Why would the Catholic church rather have members pray to dead men than to the living, all-powerful, prayer-answering God?

    Keep in mind that if these traditions of men are not true, then all your prayers to "saints" are but worthless chatter.

    If you pray to God, though, you may claim many wonderful Biblical promises:
    "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:16



    Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" so come LORD Jesus !
    Buzzardhut.net |The Watch Parables | The Rapture | Romans | The Virgin Mary | Roman Catholicism
    Never Heard of Jesus? | The Evidence Bible | Tent Meeting | The Beast/666 | The Kingdom of Darkness | The Nephilim

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    1,578

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenosjeff View Post
    ...

    Picture yourself at the foot of the cross. Look up at Jesus as he hangs there in agony, suffering for all the sins of the world, Jesus, your Lord and Savior who has seen the Father turn away for the first time in eternity, giving everything for you. As you look upon Him............How can you say it's not enough?......How can you add to this? ........How can you deserve this?

    There is only one answer, you can't. Once for all time a perfect sacrifice was given to the Father by the only one WORTHY to give the sacrifice. No preist, no High preist, no Pope, Cardinal or King could give to God what was the Messiah's to give.

    No Roman religion can do what only Jesus Christ can do!

    Jeff
    That is really powerful Jeff!
    Very moving.
    Really lays it out there right where it should be, at the foot of the cross.
    Thanks,
    Ya, It'll leave a mark.



    Pre-Flood; Pre-Furnace; Pre-Fierce Anger (orgēn)

    How is that 'Times Of The Gentiles' working out for you, World?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Getting ready to move on.
    Posts
    2,988

    Israel

    I went to Merriam Webster for this question. What is the origin of the word saint? Here's what it says:

    Middle English, from Anglo-French seint, saint, from Late Latin sanctus, from Latin, sacred, from past participle of sancire to make sacred
    The question then is, what does sacred mean? Back to Merriam Webster who said:

    dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity
    That's what makes us saints. We are dedicated and set apart to worship the One True God and His Only Begotten Son. It is just horrible and a total renunciation of the Bible to say that the only people who can be saints are those canonized by the rcc. There are plenty of people they have canonized that are not going to be found walking the streets of glory because their names do not appear in the Lamb's Book of Life.

    When Jesus said that "there is not one worthy", He included His own mother in that. If she was not found worthy according to her Son, God's Only Begotten Son, then who could be found worthy? No one, just as Jesus said. If no one is worthy, then we are all on the same level playing field. Accept Jesus' perfect and finished sacrifice, be justified and declared righteous because of what He did, and you are a saint, set apart for His service and worship.

    You know devoted catholics, they are willfully blind to the Truth, preferring the traditions of men over the Word of God. Be prepared to engage in a LOT of prayer for your sister. It's the greatest weapon we have.




    My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
    For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; the flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; the fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.


    Baruch haba b'Shem Yahweh!!


  8. #8
    zookeeper Guest

    Default

    I thank you all for your amazing replies. I found them all to be very helpful, and I really appreciate it. Thanks!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    The United State of Texas
    Posts
    27,728

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Verisimilitude View Post
    I went to Merriam Webster for this question. What is the origin of the word saint? Here's what it says:



    The question then is, what does sacred mean? Back to Merriam Webster who said:



    That's what makes us saints. We are dedicated and set apart to worship the One True God and His Only Begotten Son. It is just horrible and a total renunciation of the Bible to say that the only people who can be saints are those canonized by the rcc. There are plenty of people they have canonized that are not going to be found walking the streets of glory because their names do not appear in the Lamb's Book of Life.

    When Jesus said that "there is not one worthy", He included His own mother in that. If she was not found worthy according to her Son, God's Only Begotten Son, then who could be found worthy? No one, just as Jesus said. If no one is worthy, then we are all on the same level playing field. Accept Jesus' perfect and finished sacrifice, be justified and declared righteous because of what He did, and you are a saint, set apart for His service and worship.

    You know devoted catholics, they are willfully blind to the Truth, preferring the traditions of men over the Word of God. Be prepared to engage in a LOT of prayer for your sister. It's the greatest weapon we have.
    yep, saint just means "set aside"
    catholic saints and catholic "fathers" are neither



    Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" so come LORD Jesus !
    Buzzardhut.net |The Watch Parables | The Rapture | Romans | The Virgin Mary | Roman Catholicism
    Never Heard of Jesus? | The Evidence Bible | Tent Meeting | The Beast/666 | The Kingdom of Darkness | The Nephilim

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •