Are we certain we will disappear?

[HeIsEnough]

Lets not step over the line guys..

[Jesuslover_2002]

Seems to me it's referring to the rapture as we will be coming with our Lord in the second coming. During the rapture He comes to call His church out to meet Him in the air. He does not come all the way to earth. The disappearance of one and one left behind seems to describe a taking out, which is the rapture. In the second coming event, Jesus will not be calling His church out from the earth, but bringing them back with Him to rule for a thousand years.

the rapture will not happen in the second coming. the rapture will happen before the trib takes place. dont confuse them stick to what the scripture says. scripture says we will dissaper left one standing and the other goes.

[Acts5:41]

RE: all the springtime stuff, it would only be spring for HALF the planet. Plenty of born-agains all over the world, you'll have people raptured from various climates, time zones, etc. We can conclude that God MIGHT NOT take us during rush hour, for instance, due to the fatalities but we don't know.

We're all just sitting around guessing. We certainly have everything set for us to go any moment.

[AzSkyz]

Hi all...

Zola Levitt always had some wonderful teachings on Israel and the jewish feasts. One in particular I remember regarding the Feast of Trumpets.
Also, I've heard many Christians say that the Day of Lord will come like a thief in the night and are always trying to guess when that will be, but it also says in His word that "we are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. We are all sons of light and sons of the day". It's in 1 Thess 5:1-11

[Jan51]

RE: all the springtime stuff, it would only be spring for HALF the planet. Plenty of born-agains all over the world, you'll have people raptured from various climates, time zones, etc. We can conclude that God MIGHT NOT take us during rush hour, for instance, due to the fatalities but we don't know.

We're all just sitting around guessing. We certainly have everything set for us to go any moment.

I would think that any possible hints in the Bible about time of day or time of year (if there are any) would pertain to time/date in Israel.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

... would pertain to time/date in Israel.

I almost posted that exact thought. I agree.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Hi all...

Zola Levitt always had some wonderful teachings on Israel and the jewish feasts. One in particular I remember regarding the Feast of Trumpets.
Also, I've heard many Christians say that the Day of Lord will come like a thief in the night and are always trying to guess when that will be, but it also says in His word that "we are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. We are all sons of light and sons of the day". It's in 1 Thess 5:1-11

I agree with part of your post, but about the Feast of Trumpets idea (if I recall rightly) I would have to disagree. The "no man knows the day or the hour" (idiom which many associate with the Feast of Trumpets), Matthew 24:36 etc, is not in the context of our rapture, but His Second Coming (to the earth), so would more likely pertain to that time period instead.

Here's a portion of what I posted in another thread (somewhere):

Dr. Thomas Ice also says this (with which I agree):

Second World-Wide Gathering in Belief

Many passages in the Bible speak of Israel’s regathering, in belief, at the end of the tribulation, in conjunction with Christ’s second coming, in preparation for commencement of the millennium. These references are not being fulfilled by the modern state of Israel. Some of the citations include: Deut. 4:29-31; 30:1-10; Isa. 27:12-13; 43:5-7; Jer. 16:14-15; 31:7-10; Ezek. 11:14-18; Amos 9:14-15; Zech. 10:8-12; Matt. 24:31 and many more. I think that this regathering will fulfill the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah) for the nation of Israel.

Matthew 24:31, records a future regathering of Israel, this time in belief. “And He willsend forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other” (Matt. 24:31). This is said to take place after the tribulation (Matt. 24:29), which would be the second coming.

[Thomas Ice]

(See also Isaiah 11:12, in connection with Matt 24:29-31, 36)


By the same token, I guess we could ask, if we are already up there with Him (after RH is supposedly "fulfilled" at our rapture), why wouldn't the rest of the fall feasts pertain specifically to us? (I believe, since they are part of Israel's law, that they pertain to Israel [Lev 23:2, 10, 24, 34, 44 - "Speak unto the children of Israel"]... just as "the Sabbath" pertains only to Israel [Ex 31:17]).

Again, I believe they will be "fulfilled" all in the same year of each other, just as the spring feasts were. Why would that be different? (Hosea 6:3 [and context], regarding His "comings" to the earth... pertaining to Israel.)

As for the Church, there seems to be only one feast (IMO) which, [only] because of our "identification with Christ," I might consider as being pertinent to this particular "topic under discussion"... but that's all I'll say about that, here...



ETA: Here's another excerpt from Dr. Thomas Ice (which I've posted before):

ISRAEL'S FEASTS AND THE CHURCH

It must be admitted that most dispensational premillennialists have tended to see at least one of the Israel's feasts fulfilled by the church. The feast of Pentecost is usually seen as fulfilled by the church at her birthday in Acts 2 by many dispensationalists. This creates a problem since it is inconsistent with maintaining a consistent distinction between God's plan for Israel and His plan for the church. This errant notion that the church fulfills the Feast of Pentecost gives ground and a basis to Miller's perspective that the church also fulfills the Feast of Trumpets in the rapture. If this were true, then it would also follow that the rapture would have to occur on the day in which that feast is celebrated. However, I do not think that the church fulfills any of Israel's feasts. Israel's feasts have been and will continue to be fulfilled in relation to Israel.



Terry C. Hulbert wrote a doctoral dissertation in 1965 at Dallas Theological Seminary entitled "The Eschatological Significance of Israel's Annual Feasts." Hulbert declares,


The seven appointed times were given as a typical presentation of the commitments made to Israel in the Abrahamic Covenant and those which amplified it. As these can be fulfilled only by Israel, so the typology of the feasts can relate only to that nation. (2)


This does not mean that the church is not built upon the sacrificial work of Christ on the cross. This is certainly the basis for forgiveness of sin in any dispensation. However, it is to say that the seven feasts of Israel do serve as a specific typological prophecy picturing God's plan of redemption for His people Israel. It is important to note what Hulbert has said about the fulfillment of the Feast of Pentecost. His views are illustrated in the chart "Israel's Feast Summary," which I think best expresses the Biblical intent that all seven feasts are to be seen as a fulfillment for Israel and not the church.


The fourth feast did not foreshadow a church composed of sin-prone Jewish and Gentile believers pictured by two loaves of unleavened bread. This point is important, for if the church had fulfilled this feast, it could also fulfill the last three as the Amillennarian claims. However, the church is not revealed in the typology of any of the feasts, being related to them in the same way it is related to unconditional covenants made to Israel. It benefits from God's fulfillments to that nation, but is distinct from it. (1)


If we are going to consistently apply the Grammatical-Historical method of interpretation, commonly known as the normal or literal hermeneutic, then we cannot see any of Israel's feasts being fulfilled by God's program for the church. Why? Because these feasts are given in Leviticus 23 to Israel as part of her law. The church has been given the Lord's Table as the feast we are to celebrate "from now on until the kingdom of God comes" (Luke 22:18). If we see any of the feasts being fulfilled by the church then we are practicing the same kind of "replacement theology" which many practice, but to a greater extreme, who see the church replacing Israel in God's plan. Nowhere does the New Testament speak of the church fulfilling any of Israel's feasts. Therefore, since Israel's feasts are fulfilled only by Israel and not by the church, then Rosh HaShanah or the Feast of Trumpets cannot be a prediction of the rapture of the church. Israel's fifth feast does not give any insight into the day of the year on which the rapture will occur.

Hulbert's summary of the purpose for the fulfillment of Israel's feast makes the best sense within the framework of a consistent literal hermeneutic.

more at link (I agree w/ most of the section I quoted from, not 100% of article):

"Israel's Fall Feasts and Date-Setting of the Rapture", by Thomas Ice

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/vie...ing-of-rapture

[twinangel]

I would think that any possible hints in the Bible about time of day or time of year (if there are any) would pertain to time/date in Israel.

I never thought of that! I always wondered how that might work.Thanks Jan51

[IMSAVED]

the rapture will not happen in the second coming. the rapture will happen before the trib takes place. dont confuse them stick to what the scripture says. scripture says we will dissaper left one standing and the other goes.

I think that the scripture that you are referring to "One standing and the other goes" is the second coming

[HeIsEnough]

It must be admitted that most dispensational premillennialists have tended to see at least one of the Israel's feasts fulfilled by the church. The feast of Pentecost is usually seen as fulfilled by the church at her birthday in Acts 2 by many dispensationalists. This creates a problem since it is inconsistent with maintaining a consistent distinction between God's plan for Israel and His plan for the church. This errant notion that the church fulfills the Feast of Pentecost gives ground and a basis to Miller's perspective that the church also fulfills the Feast of Trumpets in the rapture. If this were true, then it would also follow that the rapture would have to occur on the day in which that feast is celebrated. However, I do not think that the church fulfills any of Israel's feasts. Israel's feasts have been and will continue to be fulfilled in relation to Israel.

I'm not sure I see the same "problem" as Dr. Ice, simply because for many years it was only Israel who comprised the church. What I'm getting at is the same confusion which men had over Messiah, born in Bethlehem, called out of Egypt, the Galilee tie in. They could not see it, it was conflicting in their minds till Christ fulfilled it, then men went 'Oh!, I see!' In the same way, Israel was given what Pentecost promised, only the remnant recognized it. In this way, Israel saw her day, all related to, and only related to, Christ Jesus. The church was within this fulfillment, but was and is not the purpose of it, it was for Israel. On that day, Israel and the Church 'touched each other', so to speak, and they've separated ever since. Can't explain it any different at the moment, maybe you'll see what I'm getting at.

[Jesuslover_2002]

I think that the scripture that you are referring to "One standing and the other goes" is the second coming

no its not. i believe your posttrib. Im pretrib.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

no its not. i believe your posttrib. Im pretrib.

No, IMSAVED is saying that those scriptures referred to do not pertain to the Church's pre-trib rapture (which Paul was given to explain elsewhere), but rather to the events which will take place immediately preceding Israel's promised/prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (at the time of His Second Coming, to the earth... at the END of the trib). At that time, the "one taken" is taken away in judgment. The "one left" is left to enter the earthly Millennial Kingdom in their natural body. IMSAVED is pre-trib, just as we are. (It's just that the context there is not about our rapture.)
Read through this thread for more info on that (or maybe it was another thread ).

[RandallB]

No, IMSAVED is saying that those scriptures referred to do not pertain to the Church's pre-trib rapture (which Paul was given to explain elsewhere), but rather to the events which will take place immediately preceding Israel's promised/prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (at the time of His Second Coming, to the earth... at the END of the trib). At that time, the "one taken" is taken away in judgment. The "one left" is left to enter the earthly Millennial Kingdom in their natural body. IMSAVED is pre-trib, just as we are. (It's just that the context there is not about our rapture.)
Read through this thread for more info on that (or maybe it was another thread ).

[RandallB]

I'm not sure I see the same "problem" as Dr. Ice, simply because for many years it was only Israel who comprised the church. What I'm getting at is the same confusion which men had over Messiah, born in Bethlehem, called out of Egypt, the Galilee tie in. They could not see it, it was conflicting in their minds till Christ fulfilled it, then men went 'Oh!, I see!' In the same way, Israel was given what Pentecost promised, only the remnant recognized it. In this way, Israel saw her day, all related to, and only related to, Christ Jesus. The church was within this fulfillment, but was and is not the purpose of it, it was for Israel. On that day, Israel and the Church 'touched each other', so to speak, and they've separated ever since. Can't explain it any different at the moment, maybe you'll see what I'm getting at.

Very nicely put!

Your thot -- "On that day, Israel and the Church 'touched each other', so to speak, and they've separated ever since." , I feel is spot on.

[IMSAVED]

No, IMSAVED is saying that those scriptures referred to do not pertain to the Church's pre-trib rapture (which Paul was given to explain elsewhere), but rather to the events which will take place immediately preceding Israel's promised/prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (at the time of His Second Coming, to the earth... at the END of the trib). At that time, the "one taken" is taken away in judgment. The "one left" is left to enter the earthly Millennial Kingdom in their natural body. IMSAVED is pre-trib, just as we are. (It's just that the context there is not about our rapture.)
Read through this thread for more info on that (or maybe it was another thread ).

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

[Berk60]

I was reading in 2 Thessalonians 2 this morning and it seems to be talking about rapture timing.
It talks about our gathering together unto him (Jesus).
I presume this is the Rapture that Paul is addressing. It goes on to say that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition and he'll sit in the temple of God like he is God.
Isn't this the desolation of abomination? When does that occur in the 7 years of tribulation? At the beginning?

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I was reading in 2 Thessalonians 2 this morning and it seems to be talking about rapture timing.
It talks about our gathering together unto him (Jesus).
I presume this is the Rapture that Paul is addressing. It goes on to say that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition and he'll sit in the temple of God like he is God.
Isn't this the desolation of abomination? When does that occur in the 7 years of tribulation? At the beginning?

The first verse indeed refers to "our gathering together unto Him" (that is, the rapture).

But verse 2 talks about how the Thessalonians had been troubled by those who were telling them that "the Day of the Lord" (that is, the Tribulation) was present. You can imagine how that thought would have been troubling to them. Paul is explaining to them (by way of reminder) that this could not possibly be so.
Verse 3's "that day" is referring to verse 2's "Day of the Lord [trib]" not verse 1's "our gathering together unto Him [rapture]"... and the sequence of events is repeated in verses 6-8 (rapture of the Church first, before all the rest).



The word for "a falling away" (as the KJV has it) is more accurately "the departure"... here's how Paul Lee Tan explains it (and I agree):

What precisely does Paul mean when he says that "the falling away" (2 Thess 2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article "the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for "falling away", taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection.(2) Neither does the word mean "to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. The best translation of the word is "to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls "the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.

(2) The apostle Paul uses this word in 1 Timothy 4:1, "Some shall depart from the faith." The necessity for qualifying the word with the phrase "from the faith" shows that the word taken by itself has no such connotation.

Paul Lee Tan, The Interpretation of Prophecy, page 341

Here's a very good and helpful message about that passage, by Jon Courson:

"The Rapture: A Problem Passage? 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7"

http://www.joncourson.com/teaching/t...?teaching=T443



[To answer your question... hopefully ]: The abomination of desolation occurs at mid-trib, but the Church will not be here (having been raptured out well before that time period). Matthew 24 is describing the events which lead up to Israel's promised/prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, including the abomination of desolation at mid-trib (when the believing remnant of Israel flees to the mountains [Petra/Bosrah - Rev 12:6, 14]). See esp. Matthew 24:15-21, describing those mid-trib events.

Hope this helps.

[Jan51]

The word for "a falling away" (as the KJV has it) is more accurately "the departure"... here's how Paul Lee Tan explains it (and I agree):

Haha, my first venture into the world of icons...

[Berk60]

The first verse indeed refers to "our gathering together unto Him" (that is, the rapture).

But verse 2 talks about how the Thessalonians had been troubled by those who were telling them that "the Day of the Lord" (that is, the Tribulation) was present. You can imagine how that thought would have been troubling to them. Paul is explaining to them (by way of reminder) that this could not possibly be so.
Verse 3's "that day" is referring to verse 2's "Day of the Lord [trib]" not verse 1's "our gathering together unto Him [rapture]"... and the sequence of events is repeated in verses 6-8 (rapture of the Church first, before all the rest).



The word for "a falling away" (as the KJV has it) is more accurately "the departure"... here's how Paul Lee Tan explains it (and I agree):







Here's a very good and helpful message about that passage, by Jon Courson:

"The Rapture: A Problem Passage? 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7"

http://www.joncourson.com/teaching/t...?teaching=T443



[To answer your question... hopefully ]: The abomination of desolation occurs at mid-trib, but the Church will not be here (having been raptured out well before that time period). Matthew 24 is describing the events which lead up to Israel's promised/prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, including the abomination of desolation at mid-trib (when the believing remnant of Israel flees to the mountains [Petra/Bosrah - Rev 12:6, 14]). See esp. Matthew 24:15-21, describing those mid-trib events.

Hope this helps.

It seems like the rapture as it pertains to in these verses hinges one the word for "falling away" as you noted. I looked it up in the Strong's concordance and it reads, apostasia: defection, revolt. I also found that same word used only one other place at Acts 21:21 where it says that they forsake Moses law to circumcise. I'd like to know where I can look it up to find it defined as "depart" then I'll feel more reassured.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

It seems like the rapture as it pertains to in these verses hinges one the word for "falling away" as you noted. I looked it up in the Strong's concordance and it reads, apostasia: defection, revolt. I also found that same word used only one other place at Acts 21:21 where it says that they forsake Moses law to circumcise. I'd like to know where I can look it up to find it defined as "depart" then I'll feel more reassured.

Did you listen to the link I posted? Jon Courson covers that question (after approx. the 20-minute mark).



ETA: for example, I believe he mentions that the first 10 (7? ) English translations of the Bible (before the KJV) had it as "the departure"... and also explains how that (if I recall the details correctly ) out of the 15 times the verb form of the word is used, in only 2 instances does it refer to a "religious" departure... the rest (13x) refer to a "physical/geographical" departure.

He mentions the scholars/writings you can check out to confirm this definition. Kenneth Wuest in his "Wuest's Word Studies [from the Greek New Testament]" was one. (Not sure of the exact title, at the moment.)

Note also my quote from Paul Lee Tan (author of "The Interpretation of Prophecy"), above. It's an important point, IMO.

One other thought: Paul, in his first letter to them, did not cover any such (supposed) "departure from the faith"... but a number of times (throughout 1 Thess) wrote about "OUR departure [in the rapture]." The grammatical construction of his "reminder" to them seems to necessitate that he be referring to "the departure" he had ALREADY specifically talked with them about. Our rapture. (Again, same order of events repeated in verses 6-8.)