Are we certain we will disappear?

[Carrie Grace]

ETA: Again, I'm one who believes that the phrase "the fulness of the Gentiles" is not referring to the time of the Church's rapture (as many do), but to a point in time DURING the trib, when the full amount of time of (and number of?) the (salvation for the) Gentiles is at the full (say, like is shown in Revelation 7:9, etc). This is when the blindness of Israel will be lifted (Romans 11:25).

I've wondered if the fullness of the gentiles comes right before the 7th seal. That the silence in Heaven is because it is now "game over" for any "undecided" gentiles left on earth--their hearts will be hardened, and the bed they have made, they will now be laid in it. Satan will fully indwell the AC and will kill anyone without the mark, and who will not worship him. What is left of the Trib saints will be in hiding, just trying to stay alive, and the Jews will be the target of the AC, as he knows all of Israel is the apple of God's eye. This would be a very solemn moment in Heaven, hence the 1/2 hour silence. When the Jewish people witness the AoD, the Lord will remove the scales from their eyes. They will know, and they will mourn. This will enrage the Beast, who then goes on a murderous rampage, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Jewish people.

Just something I've chewed on for a while. And of course, could be waaaaaaay off the trail.

[ByFaithIFly]

Elisha saw Elijah taken up in whirlwind. But I don't feel that Elijah is a foreshadowing of the Bride for some reason. I do feel Enoch was. Need to chew on this a bit more.

What about Moses? Some have said that Elijah and Enoch will be the two witness's.IMHO,I believe it will be Moses and Elijah because Enoch was NOT a Jew.Why would God send a non-Jew to witness to the Jewish people??

Well,we will all be finding the answers to these and alot of other questions very soon,I hope.

[tfcrew]

So following your logic, where would the Sheep come from in the Sheep/Goat judgment?

Firstly, what I stated is not 'my' logic. Review my post and respond to the stated scripture.
The original post questioned the taken/left individuals in Lk 21 and Matt 24.
As this is a rapture believing community, I feel that it should not be considered absurd that the event would suggest the rapture [taken].

Secondly, it has pretty well been accepted that the 'sheep' of the gathering at the second coming are those who refused the mark of the beast and survived to the coming of the Lord.
All are taken to this event...this gathering at the foot of Christ...sheep and goats....no one is left to sit in a field or to grind at the mill by themselves.

There are those who do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.
They attribute the one taken one left prophecy to the 2nd coming gathering.
I used the same questions as I did in my earlier post in my response to their insistence that pre-trib is so unbiblical.
As in the days of Noah where all is normal just don't fit the final days that I think are depicted.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I think the parables of Matthew 13 may help shed some light on this , and remember that, since these are all parables, they are describing the judgment in the language of parables (meaning, they each describe it somewhat differently, because they are parables... but with literal truth at the base of them, of course).


Matthew 13:28-43 (portions) -

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

[...]

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world ["age"--same as in Matt 24:3--in relation to His "coming"--the same "coming" being referred to in Matthew 23:39 of the same Olivet Discourse]; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world ["age"].

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


In Matthew 24:31 (after the trib), He "sends His angels" to gather together the elect of Israel (into one place upon the earth). In 1 Thessalonians 4:16, it says, "the Lord Himself shall descend" at the time of our rapture (pre-trib, of course).

The Matthew 13 parables (about "the end of the age"/at the time of His Second Coming) seem to indicate that the unbelievers are "gathered out" first (meaning, before the Millennial Kingdom commences), by angels, and then the righteous shall shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (they are "left" to enter into the prophesied earthly Kingdom).

Paul was the first one to reveal and explain the mystery truths pertaining to the Church (it is not the subject being talked about in the Olivet Discourse, and those parables), one of the mysteries being "the rapture." The Olivet Discourse is about the truths pertaining to their promised/prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom.

And I think I may have already mentioned how the unbelievers of Noah's day were "taken away" in judgment (see Matt 24:39--it was the unbelievers who "knew not until" [because they disregarded the word of God through Noah, not because they weren't told]... Noah DID know, as it was his job to warn them of the coming judgment). The believers (Noah and his family) were "left" to start fresh in the post-flood world. The phrase "as in the days of Noah" means that people will (again) "disregard God's Word" about the coming judgment (the "final judgment" which is at His Second Coming), and sadly will thus experience the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and separation from God forever.

[StumbleButWeFall]

< mod edit >

Jesus will come again but the tares will be gathered and removed. We need to trust him, and have faith. I think alot of worry on this forum is fear that you won't be saved. Do you feel you have truely repented, and want to start a new life? The rapture is not something new people were waiting for the rapture as far back as the 1800's. When it didn't happen for some people they thought they were left behind some even gave up faith or wanted to die from depression. Please be patient don't fear the world I don't want anyone to feel that God has abandoned them. Satan is trying to take as many souls with him as he knows already he can never be God, but he thinks that by taking as many souls he can make God hurt the most. He will try to copy and twist scripture to what God does this is how he decieves people. It is not just false prophets we should look out for but false wordly events as well.

[Any Minute]

< mod edit > Jesus will come again but the tares will be gathered and removed. We need to trust him, and have faith. I think alot of worry on this forum is fear that you won't be saved. Do you feel you have truely repented, and want to start a new life? The rapture is not something new people were waiting for the rapture as far back as the 1800's. When it didn't happen for some people they thought they were left behind some even gave up faith or wanted to die from depression. Please be patient don't fear the world I don't want anyone to feel that God has abandoned them. Satan is trying to take as many souls with him as he knows already he can never be God, but he thinks that by taking as many souls he can make God hurt the most. He will try to copy and twist scripture to what God does this is how he decieves people. It is not just false prophets we should look out for but false wordly events as well.

I'm not sure what your dream means, but I do wonder if you realize that the Church (the Bride of Christ), are not the ones being spoken of. We won't be here, as the rapture will have already occured before this event takes place. Do you disagree with the post above yours and all the others in this thread that point out who is being spoken of in those passages of the wheat and tares, and when that occurs?

Maybe I'm in the minority, because I'm surprised that so many see the Church being spoken directly of in the Olivet discourse, the parables, or the book of Matthew in general. Of course I see teaching and some application there and I do realize the early Church was comprised of mostly Jews, but the Church was still a mystery at this point. After the Church was formed in Acts, we can't go back through Israel's history and say all the promises/punishments that were given are meant for the Church (still future at that time).

Your right about the rapture not being a new revelation, but it goes way farther back than the 1800's. Many in the early century church knew and understood the pre- trib rapture, Paul taught it in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, long before this 1800's myth used by deniers of a pre-trib rapture. Many teachers of that time period, such as John Darby and C.I Scofield helped bring back into focus dispensations, the pre-trib rapture, and the fact that Israel and the Church are not the same as spoken of in scripture. God has a different plan and purpose for each.

Your admonishment about fear is appriciated and needed, no born again believer should ever live in fear.

Edit- removed part of quote, was typing while mod. was editing

[Jan51]

Maybe I'm in the minority, because I'm surprised that so many see the Church being spoken directly of in the Olivet discourse, the parables, or the book of Matthew in general. Of course I see teaching and some application there and I do realize the early Church was comprised of mostly Jews, but the Church was still a mystery at this point. After the Church was formed in Acts, we can't go back through Israel's history and say all the promises/punishments that were given are meant for the Church (still future at that time).

I'm with you!

[DragonTiger]

Keep your faith in Jesus and He will keep promise and or He will coming take us home....that we have nothing to worry or fear.......

[tbrian40]

Through scripture, I know His return will be pre-trib. Let's reason here. For example, a married couple is at home watching the weather on the t.v. The husband decides he is going to take a look over the plain's horizon to see if there is any trouble. After observation, he sees a tornado forming 5-10 miles southwest of their home. He most certainly will warn his wife and they will prepare knowing what is about to happen.


For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present or the future , nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8: 37,38,39

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I think we all agree here, that the rapture is definitely pre-trib. There's no question about that.

[tfcrew]

Maybe I'm in the minority, because I'm surprised that so many see the Church being spoken directly of in the Olivet discourse, the parables, or the book of Matthew in general.

Pretty sure that is wrong.....

Matt 18
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

There is other mention of the church in Matt.


Concerning the church at rapture....
Rev 3
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The lukewarm 'church' will have to bear up to life in the tribulation...no matter how you slice it.

If I am in the minority, I will still believe the way I do.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

There are two ways the word "church" is used. Here is one of them (for example):

Acts 7:38 -

"This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us"


Are we going to claim that "the church [that was] in the wilderness" (back when the commandments were given at Sina[i]) is the same as "the Church which is His body" now? Those who hold to Covenant Theology/Reformed Theology certainly do.

Also, some make the case: that some of "the Church" (any member of the body of Christ) may go through the tribulation period (if they are, so-called, "Lukewarm" [according to their faulty definition of it]... but the lukewarm verse is not referring to "the Church" which is His body, but [are letters] to "the churches" made up of both believers and those who are NOT connected to the Source [i.e. unbelievers/the lukewarm]).

I just think we need to be careful... just because a verse uses the word "church" does not mean it is referring to the Church which is His body (and to which the rapture pertains).

[Shonsu]

There are two ways the word "church" is used. Here is one of them (for example):

Acts 7:38 -

"This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us"


Are we going to claim that "the church [that was] in the wilderness" (back when the commandments were given at Sina[i]) is the same as "the Church which is His body" now? Those who hold to Covenant Theology/Reformed Theology certainly do.

Also, some make the case: that some of the Church (any member of the body of Christ) may go through the tribulation period (if they are, so-called, "Lukewarm" [according to their faulty definition of it]... but the lukewarm verse is not referring to "the Church" which is His body, but [are letters] to "the churches" made up of both believers and those who are NOT connected to the Source [i.e. unbelievers]).

I just think we need to be careful... just because a verse uses the word "church" does not mean it is referring to the Church which is His body (and to which the rapture pertains).

[Any Minute]

Pretty sure that is wrong.....

Matt 18
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

There is other mention of the church in Matt.


Concerning the church at rapture....
Rev 3
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The lukewarm 'church' will have to bear up to life in the tribulation...no matter how you slice it.

If I am in the minority, I will still believe the way I do.

I see acceptedinthebeloved addressed your post while I looking up some passages to post, so I won't go into the differences that she pointed out.

You do realise that that church,
1577 [e] ekklēsia ἐκκλησίᾳ church, means an assembly. You could in theory have a church of gathered together.

I said Church, big difference.
Yes I know the word church is used in Matthew 18:17 and many other places in scripture. Not every reference is speaking of or directly to the Church, so we need to look at the context, including who are being spoken to and what is the message being given.

I won't give a commentary here but here are a couple of passages in the New Testament that might help in making clear the what being spoken of. Remember, Jews gathering in a temple could be considered a church so the importance is on the teaching. The teaching is of how followers of Jesus should conduct themselves, discipline.

I Corinthians 5:1-5

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


1 Corinthians 6:1-11

1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Maybe these will help you see that the context, more than the word church, is what the focus of the passages you quoted are about.

There are many examples of who belong to the Church (which happened on the day of Pentecost) Acts 2, see also 1Corinthians 12:12-28for a good example of the Church (the body and bride) is this what you dispute? Is it dispensations?

You said:
"If I am in the minority, I will still believe the way I do"

What do you believe?

[RandallB]

....
Also, some make the case: that some of "the Church" (any member of the body of Christ) may go through the tribulation period (if they are, so-called, "Lukewarm" [according to their faulty definition of it]... but the lukewarm verse is not referring to "the Church" which is His body, but [are letters] to "the churches" made up of both believers and those who are NOT connected to the Source [i.e. unbelievers/the lukewarm]).

I just think we need to be careful... just because a verse uses the word "church" does not mean it is referring to the Church which is His body (and to which the rapture pertains).

There is no such thing as a Partial Rapture where only part of the Bride is taken to heaven.

Just like there is no such thing where part of the Bride suffers the Lord's wrath or fierce anger. The Lord will not allow His wrath to fall on His Bride's elbow. We Gotta Be Outta Here first.

[Any Minute]

You do realise that that church,
1577 [e] ekklēsia ἐκκλησίᾳ church, means an assembly.
I said Church, big difference.

I wanted to clarify this point, as I left off some of the definition of "church" used in Matthew 18:17.
As pointed out up thread, not always in reference to what we think of (how I use it anyway) Church, to distinguish from some of the other uses such as, assembly of called-out ones, the false church, or the visible church.

ekklésia: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
Original Word: ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ekklésia
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see'-ah)
Short Definition: an assembly, congregation, church
Definition: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers.


assembly, church.
From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both) -- assembly, church.
see GREEK ek

see GREEK kaleo


ek or ex: from, from out of
Original Word: ἐκ, ἐξ
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: ek or ex
Phonetic Spelling: (ek)
Short Definition: from out, out from among, from
Definition: from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards.


kaleó: to call
Original Word: καλέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kaleó
Phonetic Spelling: (kal-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I call, invite, name
Definition: (a) I call, summon, invite, (b) I call, name.


bid, call forth, name, invite
Akin to the base of keleuo; to "call" (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise) -- bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was (called)).


Another example from Matthew 16:18 ekklēsian (same root word)
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I need to include this wonderful passage with the above
Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(the same thing once revealed to us, the Church)