Are we certain we will disappear?

[Berk60]

Did you listen to the link I posted? Jon Courson covers that question.



ETA: for example, I believe he mentions that the first 10 (or so) English translations of the Bible (before the KJV) had it as "the departure"... and also explains how that (if I recall the details correctly ) out of the 15 times the verb form of the word is used, in only 2(?) instances does it refer to a "religious" departure... the rest (13x[?]) refer to a "physical/geographical" departure.

Note also my quote from Paul Lee Tan (author of "The Interpretation of Prophecy"), above. It's an important point, IMO.

I tried to listen but I guess I have a problem with my Real Player.

[Jan51]

Thomas Ice also has an article on rapture/departure.

http://www.raptureready.com/featured...onians2_3.html

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Thomas Ice also has an article on rapture/departure.

http://www.raptureready.com/featured...onians2_3.html

Berk60, I added a bit to my previous post also (incl. a reference to another scholar's work [which Courson mentions] on this definition... which hopefully will help you in your quest).

[readynwaiting]

[11] No End Times Date Setting, Date Speculating, Date Framing, Date Suggesting, Date Alerts, or designating specific... feasts as the main event of the Rapture or Second Coming. No quoting from others on date setting future events such as...the Rapture.. feasts, etc.... or speculations on who will be the Antichrist, False Prophet, or Gog. This includes linking to sites and books that also speculate...Rosh Hashanah, and other events. Do not set Date Alerts and speculations that even hint of date setting, nor posting from date setting preachers. We have already heard the "know the season argument". Matthew 24:36 Mark 13:32
Please do not inadvertently call Jesus a liar. http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=2

< Mod Edit - Sorry, ready, the post went against this rule. >

[readynwaiting]

I have a huge amount of respect for his scholarly work and refer to him a lot for insight. I do believe he is remiss to completely separate the church from any relationship to the Feasts of Jehovah....

< Mod Edit - Same issue here. >

Btw, I believe you called the whole Trib the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" when it's actually just the last three and a half years, after the AOD. That may throw off some of those calculations.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Nice post, readynwaiting (and you know how much I like that commentator) , but I am tending to think that this "spiritual awakening" of Israel occurs when "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." This is when their blindness is lifted (Romans 11:25). I am one who does not believe that "the fulness of the Gentiles" is equated with the Rapture of the Church (at all), but relates instead to the event shown at mid-trib, Rev 7:9 ("a great multitude... of all nations...") That is the gleanings, or whatever, during the trib... I think.

I'm thinking that perhaps Pentecost is "fulfilled" (with those who experience the trib... at some point IN the trib... I had been thinking, maybe just before mid-trib, based on Joel 2:28-32, 31, 32 [???] Like, say "4 months before the harvest [i.e. Tabernacles]." Not sure... but I'm getting a little clearer picture, I think.)

Note: This is also distinct from "the times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24b) which lasts from 606/605BC to the END of the trib (Rev 11:2).

JMHO

[readynwaiting]

< Mod Edit - More of same edited out per posting rules. >

Sorry for any unintended thread drift here.... can't wait to disappear btw!!!

[RandallB]

.....
I am one who does not believe that "the fulness of the Gentiles" is equated with the Rapture of the Church (at all), but relates instead to the event shown at mid-trib, Rev 7:9 ("a great multitude... of all nations...") That is the gleanings, or whatever, during the trib... I think.

......

I am sorry but I do not see that Rev 7:9 has any possibilities of being the "fullness of the Gentiles". There are many gentiles saved after Rev 7. Why else are there the 144K +2 witnesses? For witnessing to the world and for drawing more to the Lord.

These Rev 7:9 saints are the first to die in the beginning years of the Tribulation. They probably realized that the rapture was their missed boat and they finally realized that they needed the Lord. Their huge number probably comes from the fearful reaction that the world and AC will have against the rapture and its true cause.

In the Rev 7:9 timeframe the Rev 14 angels have yet to fly and pronounce the gospel. Rev 14:13 talks about a blessing to those that die henceforth.

I just do not see in scripture that zero more gentiles join the Trib-Saints group after Rev 7:9 due to their number being filled.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I am sorry but I do not see that Rev 7:9 has any possibilities of being the "fullness of the Gentiles". There are many gentiles saved after Rev 7. Why else are there the 144K +2 witnesses? For witnessing to the world and for drawing more to the Lord.

These Rev 7:9 saints are the first to die in the beginning years of the Tribulation. They probably realized that the rapture was their missed boat and they finally realized that they needed the Lord. Their huge number probably comes from the fearful reaction that the world and AC will have against the rapture and its true cause.

In the Rev 7:9 timeframe the Rev 14 angels have yet to fly and pronounce the gospel. Rev 14:13 talks about a blessing to those that die henceforth.

I just do not see in scripture that zero more gentiles join the Trib-Saints group after Rev 7:9 due to their number being filled.

I could be wrong, of course, but I get this from Revelation 7:14 where it says, "these are they which came out of GREAT tribulation"... the same "great" word as in Matthew 24:21, "for then shall be GREAT tribulation" (speaking of the second half). Also, in the OT verses describing the second half of the trib, they also use the word "great." So this event (in Rev 7) seems to have occured at least as far into the trib as the mid-point. I think the 144,000 will have been sealed possibly at the Pentecost 4 months prior to that ("4 months until the harvest"; see also Joel 2:28-30, 31-32 and compare with Acts 2:17-19, 20-21 "before the GREAT and terrible/notable day of the Lord"). Not that they weren't "working" prior to this. This is the harvest that will take place at that time, IMO, after they have been witnessed to.

It's interesting to me that they are holding "palms in their hands"... a Tabernacles theme. Tabernacles is the last of only three Harvest Festivals (of the seven feasts of the Jews; Deut 16:16, 2 Chron 8:13). And if I recall rightly, only these three festivals is the word "mow'ed" used (i.e. "set appointment", "the time appointed" "set time" - see Gen 1:14 for first mention "seasons"["signs" also???] - Strong's H4150; Dan 8:19, 11:27, 11:35; Hab 2:3 compared with Heb 10:37). Jesus, in John 7, had many prophetic things to say about and during this feast, IMO.

Hope that helps you see my perspective (or at least one of a couple... the one I'm currently chewing on. )



ETA:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...0&t=KJV&page=9

http://www.blueletterbible.org/searc...2A+H4150&t=KJV

[acceptedintheBeloved]

But I love that you challenge my ponderings on this.

The feeling is mutual, sister!

[RandallB]

Also chewing on this. Looked at the word 'great' in the interlinear first and seems that the two 'greats' are the same Greek word.

Next looked at the term "out of".

Here is what Jack Kelly has to say:

......

How do we know that? The Greek word translated “out of” in the phrase “these are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation” is the same word that’s translated “from” in Rev 3:10 where the Lord promised deliverance for the Church. Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. According to The Strong’s Concordance it’s a primary preposition denoting origin. It means “from, or out of, the place, time, or cause” of a specified event.

So, like the Church, these saints have been removed from the place, the time, and the cause of the Great Tribulation. They didn’t come to faith in time for the Rapture so they won’t share in the Church’s unique destiny and blessing. But most likely being finally persuaded to faith by the Church’s disappearance, they’ll be martyred early in the 70th week, and so will escape the worst of it. Later on the living will envy the dead so much that they’ll long for death, but death will elude them. (Rev. 9:6)

http://gracethrufaith.com/revelation.../revelation-7/

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Also chewing on this. Looked at the word 'great' in the interlinear first and seems that the two 'greats' are the same Greek word.

Next looked at the term "out of".

Here is what Jack Kelly has to say:

I see a clear distinction between "I will keep thee out of [ek] " (Rev 3:10) and

"these are they which came out of [ek]" (Rev 7:14).

I'm not sure why he seems to ignore the words which I bolded (above), and focused only on the word "ek".
"Ek" alone hardly provides the full picture and context. It needs the surrounding words... including the words after "ek" (which I did not fill in, here).

So, I disagree with him, on this point. I've already mentioned why I see this as occurring at least as far as mid-way into the trib... but I agree with the scholars who say that, those who "came out of" great tribulation, they are seen standing before His earthly Millennial throne in resurrected bodies (having "hands"), at the end of the trib, which the concluding verses of the chapter seem to indicate (Rev 7:15, 16, 17 [see Isaiah 49:10, a Millennial Kingdom verse]... which, by the way, also says, "and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them," another Tabernacles theme. See also John 1:14--some believe Jesus was born on Tabernacles. I tend to believe so, as well.) In other words, I think the entire passage is indicating both "when" these have "come out of" AND "what their ultimate destination point is." Does that make sense?


ETA: also, the phrase "the Gentiles" in Rom 11:25 ("the fulness of the Gentiles") is the same Greek word (Strong's G1484) that is translated "nations" in Matthew 24:14 "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations" (which I believe takes place during the first half of the trib, per context)... and also, in Rev 7:9 as "nations" ("a great multitude... of all nations"). Of course, this doesn't prove anything. I'm just offering it for further examining.

[readynwaiting]

< Mod Edit - More of same edited out per posting rules. >

Sorry for any unintended thread drift here.... can't wait to disappear btw!!!

Sorry Mods... wasn't trying to cross any lines there, and certainly wasn't trying to call Jesus a liar.

[GulfCoastEdd]

the rapture will not happen in the second coming. the rapture will happen before the trib takes place. dont confuse them stick to what the scripture says. scripture says we will dissaper left one standing and the other goes.

I too, believe that the rapture and the second coming are two separate events. I believe that when we are caught up (rapture) to be with Jesus it will be prior to the tribulation. I also believe that after the tribulation period we will be coming back with our Lord when He returns to the earth (second coming).

When we are caught up (disappear) and one is left standing behind speaks to me more clearly as the rapture. Why would we disappear at the second coming if we are with Jesus when He returns and actually sets foot on the Mount of Olives, which I believe to be the second coming? During the previous appearance, when we meet Him in the air, He does not come all the way down to the earth.

[DragonTiger]

I too, believe that the rapture and the second coming are two separate events. I believe that when we are caught up (rapture) to be with Jesus it will be prior to the tribulation. I also believe that after the tribulation period we will be coming back with our Lord when He returns to the earth (second coming).

When we are caught up (disappear) and one is left standing behind speaks to me more clearly as the rapture. Why would we disappear at the second coming if we are with Jesus when He returns and actually sets foot on the Mount of Olives, which I believe to be the second coming? During the previous appearance, when we meet Him in the air, He does not come all the way down to the earth.

These people who still a alive will be a waiting on the Second Coming. Jesus will come and touch the land then everything destroy and also PLUS a prepare to clean and enter to Kingdom for thousand years for these who are alive for the seven years will be enter the regain with the Jesus for thousand years. That where will be the Israel people and other not Israel people....who know but that what it mean.

Second Coming in end the Seven years we will be with Jesus to coming on the earth end of the Seven years.

Peace

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Originally Posted by Jesuslover_2002

the rapture will not happen in the second coming. the rapture will happen before the trib takes place. dont confuse them stick to what the scripture says. scripture says we will dissaper left one standing and the other goes.

I too, believe that the rapture and the second coming are two separate events. I believe that when we are caught up (rapture) to be with Jesus it will be prior to the tribulation. I also believe that after the tribulation period we will be coming back with our Lord when He returns to the earth (second coming).

When we are caught up (disappear) and one is left standing behind speaks to me more clearly as the rapture. Why would we disappear at the second coming if we are with Jesus when He returns and actually sets foot on the Mount of Olives, which I believe to be the second coming? During the previous appearance, when we meet Him in the air, He does not come all the way down to the earth.

We won't disappear at the Second Coming. The "one taken, and the other left" passages are referring to the judgment at His Second Coming (to the earth). At that time, the "one taken" is taken away in judgment. The one "left" is left to enter the earthly Millennial Kingdom in their natural bodies (per context; see also Luke 17:24-37, 34, 35, 36, 37; there is a sense of finality in those passages that won't be true after our rapture. IOW, people will still have opportunity to be saved during the tribulation period. Not so after His Second Coming. See again, Luke 17:26-27, 28-29, 30, etc. "and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." In the days of Noah, the ones "taken" were "taken away in judgment," see Matt 24:39.)

Our rapture (when the Church "disappears") will take place at least 7 years before that (and in my opinion, precisely 7 years before).

[gradywhite]

We won't disappear at the Second Coming. The "one taken, and the other left" passages are referring to the judgment at His Second Coming (to the earth). At that time, the "one taken" is taken away in judgment. The one "left" is left to enter the earthly Millennial Kingdom in their natural bodies (per context; see also Luke 17:24-37, 34, 35, 36, 37; there is a sense of finality in those passages that won't be true after our rapture. IOW, people will still have opportunity to be saved during the tribulation period. Not so after His Second Coming. See again, Luke 17:26-27, 28-29, 30, etc. "and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." In the days of Noah, the ones "taken" were "taken away in judgment," see Matt 24:39.)

Our rapture (when the Church "disappears") will take place at least 7 years before that (and in my opinion, precisely 7 years before).

I'm feeling pretty sure, when the rapture occurs, there will be plenty of situations where one will be taken, and one will be left.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I'm feeling pretty sure, when the rapture occurs, there will be plenty of situations where one will be taken, and one will be left.

True, but I don't believe that the contexts of such verses are referring to that time period (of our rapture), and a lot of confusion results when this is not distinguished/applied properly.

[Shonsu]

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The twinkling of the eye refers to the change, not the actual catching up.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The teaching I have been given on the term harpazo, meaning caught up, is that it is a sudden snatching away, as if out of danger. Also to be taken away, as if by force. While this denotes quickness, it is not the same speed as twinkling of an eye denotes. A twinkling to mortal men would be the same as instantaneous. But someone snatched away is slightly more noticeable to the human eye, it registers as a small passage of time rather than instantaneous.

I think a lot of people miss that distinction and think that the "catching up" happens in the twinkling of an eye instead of the transforming of our bodies. It is the transformation that happens in the twinkling of an eye while the actual catching up into the clouds could take substantially longer.

[RandallB]

We won't disappear at the Second Coming. The "one taken, and the other left" passages are referring to the judgment at His Second Coming (to the earth). At that time, the "one taken" is taken away in judgment. The one "left" is left to enter the earthly Millennial Kingdom in their natural bodies (per context; see also Luke 17:24-37, 34, 35, 36, 37; there is a sense of finality in those passages that won't be true after our rapture. IOW, people will still have opportunity to be saved during the tribulation period. Not so after His Second Coming. See again, Luke 17:26-27, 28-29, 30, etc. "and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." In the days of Noah, the ones "taken" were "taken away in judgment," see Matt 24:39.)

Our rapture (when the Church "disappears") will take place at least 7 years before that (and in my opinion, precisely 7 years before).

One thing --- I feel that there will be "time periods" between events.

Ps 83, Is 17, Zep 2, etc. God judges immediate hateful neighbor nations

Time Period -- for Israel to dwell safely, plant vineyards, build houses after the Lord judges their hateful neighbors (Ez 28:25-26) -- also time to grow wealthy - (discover more gas/oil deposits?) -- pre conditions for Ez 38

Ez 38-39 War -- God judges next ring of nations

Soon after this is the "Enforce Convenant" event.

Tribulation begins -- 3.5 years -- then Great Tribulation -- God judges all nations

Due to the Dispensational Change language "You shall know that I am the Lord" in Ps 83 et al coupled with the promises that we will escape the Lord's wrath/fierce anger and the "Come and be Hidden" language that are also in Ps 83 et al, it looks to me that we are taken out before Ps 83. Therefore there are more than 7 years between the rapture and the 2nd coming.