The Harbinger - A Counterfeit Theology of Nationalism *merged*

[Marc @ The Writer's Block]

I have just listened to Jan Markell & Jonathan Cahn at her Website talking about his book "The Harbinger". In my opinion, we are indeed at the end of this age, and how I pray Jesus comes very, very, VERY soon now!

[debi208]

I saw the author on Jewish Voice talking about this the other day. It was pretty interesting. I am thinking of getting the book. Things are not looking good for America...

[Abba'sChild]

My husband and I are actually in the process of reading this book -- it's an excellent read! It is written in a fictional style, but with the facts based in real events. Our pastor actually took time out of our verse-by-verse study to discuss the facts presented in the book -- and he made sure to research them and talked to the author before presenting this to our church. It was amazing & sobering! America truly stands at the brink. I am praying for revival, especially within our churches, because judgment begins at the house of God, and if we are His people, we need to humble ourselves and pray, and turn away from our sin, and then He will hear us and heal our land.

I think the storms, EQ's, social unrest, etc. are some of God's wake-up calls to get our attention. Not out of wrath, but out of mercy.

Praying for America to WAKE UP!

[SummerSailing81]

Oy vey! Very, very interesting. I, also, pray for revival rather than God's judgment. At this point, I see God's judgment though - this country learned NOTHING from 9/11. As hard as it is to believe, we are even more godless, immoral and corrupt as a nation than we were 10 years ago. Also, this current administration has not only turned its back on God's chosen people, Israel, it has done everything it can to actually help Israel's enemies. What choice does the righteous God have but to judge us? There's nothing else He can do and this country deserves it.

[Saved By Jesus]

Heres a documentary about the same issues as the book and talks about Jonathan Cahn and his book Harbinger.

Well, I just finished watching the video that is linked to in the quote directly above, and, all that I can say is... "Wow!!"

I had read a few "surface" things about this "Harbinger stuff"; but, I really did not have any in-depth idea at all about what all of this was about until I watched the video that is linked to in HumbleBerean's quote above.

All that I can say after having now watched this video is that the United States of America is in **big trouble**, because, an even more horrendous and terrible judgment from Almighty God Himself than were the 9/11 attacks might be coming down upon the United States **At any time now!!**


Saved By Jesus

[SummerSailing81]

Our upcoming election is symptomatic of the sinful ills this country is suffering. Our choices - an uber-left leaning liberal godless socialist and a member of a religious cult. Is it any wonder God is lifting His hand of protection from the US?

[Reason&Hope]

I listened to the two-part interview on Jan Markell's show yesterday and today, via the internet.

I am curious, and I'll watch the video later when I have time. Something bothers me, however, that I'd like to get an answer to:

I don't understand why it is wrong to rebuild the world trade center after the buildings were destroyed by terrorists.

[araj54]

I listened to the two-part interview on Jan Markell's show yesterday and today, via the internet.

I am curious, and I'll watch the video later when I have time. Something bothers me, however, that I'd like to get an answer to:

I don't understand why it is wrong to rebuild the world trade center after the buildings were destroyed by terrorists.

It"s not so much that rebuilding is wrong. There was no acknowledgement or repentance of our nations sin or even a hint that we as a nation should turn to God for guidance. Same old we will, instead of God's will.

[HumbleBerean]

I listened to the two-part interview on Jan Markell's show yesterday and today, via the internet.

I am curious, and I'll watch the video later when I have time. Something bothers me, however, that I'd like to get an answer to:

I don't understand why it is wrong to rebuild the world trade center after the buildings were destroyed by terrorists.

Isaiah 9:9-13
9And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria, that say in the pride and stoutness of heart,

10The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.

11Therefore the LORD shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together;

12The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

13For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts
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The premise behind the Harbinger and the documentary and the interview is that 9-11 was a judgement from God that parallels the passage of scripture above. God removed the hedge of protection and allowed the evil of the terrorists to be used for judgement against a nation. Instead of turning to God in repentence and fear, America proclaimed that we will rebuild the towers bigger and better. There is much much more. Eerie.

[Saved By Jesus]

I listened to the two-part interview on Jan Markell's show yesterday and today, via the internet.

I am curious, and I'll watch the video later when I have time. Something bothers me, however, that I'd like to get an answer to:

I don't understand why it is wrong to rebuild the world trade center after the buildings were destroyed by terrorists.

It"s not so much that rebuilding is wrong. There was no acknowledgement or repentance of our nations sin or even a hint that we as a nation should turn to God for guidance. Same old we will, instead of God's will.

@Reason&Hope:

Yes, by all means DO watch that video when you get the time, because, that video does an **excellent job** answering your question and expanding upon what araj54 said in the quote directly above.


Saved By Jesus

[Tall Timbers]

The book was a hard read for me. It was the conversation part with the visitor (angel) where the main guy seemed to always be repeating himself... But I found the context of the book to be quite interesting. I believe that most of the "facts" check out but I did e-mail the author on a couple of very large economic related mistakes... never heard back from him. The premise of judgment coming upon the USA, a country endowed with so many blessings from God, is scary... even though most of us figure judgment is due...

I twice lived in the mid-west for 4 years each time. I was always amazed how twisters would tend to miss population centers most of the time... Now it seems like hurricanes and twisters are targeting population centers, and the world is experiencing big earthquakes with much more frequency than before. I grew up in California. In the two decades that it took me to grow up there we had one or two biggies (7.0 or bigger), that I can remember. I think God is sending a whole lot of wake up calls... and if he is, they'll probably increase in frequency and strength.

I reckon some day when we're wearing new bodies and we're a lot smarter than we are now we'll be able to see God's loving hand always trying to help mankind and individuals turn to Him for their own eternal good.

[Reason&Hope]

I tried watching the video, found the intro too drawn out, etc. and the music, arg! I'll try the book.

Question: if someone steals my car, is that God punishing me or judging me? If an arsonist sets fire to my church because he hates Christians, or a gunman runs in during service and starts shooting, should the members of the church immediately comprehend that God was judging them? One of our elders was recently operated on for prostate cancer; he's doing fine now, but was this a judgment from God?

What I am trying to discern here, is When is a tragedy or attack a judgment from God and when is it merely a trial or the result of living in a sinful world? And when is it a Satanic attack?

[Saved By Jesus]

Well, I just finished listening to both parts of Jan Markell's interview with Jonathan Cahn, (who is the author of "The Harbinger"), that araj54 linked to in the quote directly above.

This interview was **Excellent** and gave us more of an in-depth explanation from Jonathan Cahn himself concerning everything that the Lord led and enabled him to do in the Lord's leading Jonathan to write "The Harbinger."

If you have some time, it is definitely **well worth it** to take the time to listen to both parts of this interview!


Saved By Jesus

[iSong6:3]

I've not read the book myself. I did read a review/perspective on the book from someone I highly respect... so I thought I'd post a link to his critique for additional perspective and commentary:

https://gracethrufaith.com/selah/a-c...the-harbinger/

Thanks for posting this, copied article below.

Folks, 2 Chronicles is not for America, we do not have a covenant with the Lord as Israel does. http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1412...er-for-America

In addition, the stuff about the tree and whatever else is just nonsense. I'm staring at a tree in my yard right now, it doesn't mean my property is related to 9/11 and a curse of God.

A Critique Of The Harbinger
A Critique by Jack Kelley

"The bricks have fallen down, but we will rebuild with hewn stones; the sycamores are cut down, but we will replace them with cedars.” (Isaiah 9:10 NKJV)

It’s fair to say I was a skeptic when I picked up a copy of The Harbinger, by Jonathan Cahn. I decided to read the book only because I had received several questions about it. But I soon discovered that the author makes a stunning case for a connection between the judgment of the northern Kingdom by the Assyrians in 722 BC and the judgment of America, underway since 9-11.

The way leaders of both countries responded to a limited judgment with defiance and resolve but no repentance was way beyond coincidence. And by responding with the very same words that Isaiah attributed to Israel (Isaiah 9:10), America’s leaders left no doubt in my mind that the judgments we’ve suffered are warnings from God and they didn’t grasp the meaning of Isaiah’s words even though they repeated them over and over again.

I was tracking beautifully with the author’s interpretation of our recent history and literally couldn’t put the book down as long as he was comparing Israel’s history with ours.

Then What Happened?

“If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land” 2ronicles 7:13-14).

But when he used the above passage to justify his claim that America could experience a different outcome from the Northern Kingdom’s, he lost me. In my mind the book was instantly downgraded to another work of fiction, although with convincing historical and spiritual analysis. I had a hard time getting through the last few chapters, because they were just a human opinion based on an incorrect interpretation of 2 chronicles 7:14. At its end the book had become just as vague and fanciful as it had been precise and direct at the beginning.

If the author is correct in his assertion that as far as God is concerned political leaders officially speak for their country, then America is not the country of “my people who are called by my name” to whom 2 Chronicles 7:14 is addressed. At a press conference in Turkey in April of 2009 President Obama said that America is not a Christian nation. He was repeating something he’d been saying since 2007. When asked to clarify this he once said, “What I mean is America is not just a Christian nation. We are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.”

That statement doesn’t make sense. A nation may count among its residents people of many faiths, but it can’t be a nation of all of them. Such a nation could only be a nation of no official faith. And that’s what America is, we’re a nation of no official faith. (I sometimes wonder how it makes Christians from other countries feel when American Christians act as if they think America and the Church are one and the same.)

It’s true there are a lot of Christians in America. But we all belong to the Church and the Church has no national homeland, not in America and not anywhere else. The Church comes from every nation on Earth but our citizenship is in Heaven (Phil. 3:20) and that’s where our home is. American believers are not called to repent and save our country any more than believers who live in other countries are called to repent and save theirs. No matter what country we live in we’re supposed to be like Abraham, strangers in a foreign land looking forward to the city whose architect and builder is God (Hebr. 11:9-10).

Israel was a nation officially in a covenant relationship with God whose eternal destiny is to live with Him in the land He gave them here on Earth (Ezekiel 43:7). After King Solomon’s death the nation was divided, both physically and spiritually. The Northern Kingdom didn’t just split from the South, they also split from God. The Levitical Priests were expelled, and the faithful from all of the northern tribes fled to the south with them (2 Chron. 11:16). Only the unbelievers remained in the North. A new priesthood was formed and altars were erected to pagan gods. Failing to win the Northern Kingdom back, the Lord sent the Assyrians to warn them. They refused to heed the warnings and were ultimately conquered.

Even though our relationship with Him was different from theirs, America officially renounced God just as the Northern Kingdom had. Now God is judging America, and the only way for Americans to escape the coming judgment is to flee with the Church, like the believing Israelites fled with the priests. (To his credit the author did provide a moving set of instructions on how to become part of the Church.)

Once the Lord takes us home, what’s left of America will be destroyed for failing to heed God’s warnings just as the Northern Kingdom was destroyed. The dual purpose of the Great Tribulation is clearly explained in Jeremiah 30:11. The first is to completely destroy all the nations among which the Jews have been scattered, and the second is to discipline Israel in preparation for the coming Kingdom Age. If you’re looking for a Bible verse that refers to America in the end times, look at the first part of Jeremiah 30:11.

What About Them?

Things were different in the Southern Kingdom, even though they were in the process of abandoning God as well. On the Eve of their conquest by the Babylonians 120 years after the Northern Kingdom ceased to exist, God had Jeremiah tell the exiles from the Southern Kingdom:

“When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." (Jeremiah 29:10-11)

By no stretch of the imagination can this promise apply to any one but the Jews in exile in Babylon in the 6th century BC. Such a promise was never given to the Northern Kingdom, nor has one been given to America.

After the 70 years were over, God brought the Jews who were willing to return back to the Promised Land, just like He said He would. But this was not the fulfillment of 2 Chronicles 7:14 either. The 70 year period of the captivity had been predetermined by God and at its end He brought them back like He said. 2 Chronicles 7:14 will be fulfilled when the Jewish leadership invokes the promise of Hosea 6:1-2 and petitions the Lord’s return to save them.

When Will That Be?

When Israel’s rejection of Jesus as their Messiah was complete, He finally left them alone. It had been 40 days since He provided the unmistakable sign they had asked for (the sign of Jonah, Matt. 12:39) to prove He was who He claimed to be. 40 being the number of testing, their time of testing had expired and they had failed. In Hosea 5:15 the prophet had Him saying,

“Then I will go back to my place until they admit their guilt. And they will seek my face; in their misery they will earnestly seek me.”

When the judgments of the Great Tribulation are at their worst, Israel will officially petition the Lord’s return.

“Come, let us return to the LORD. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence” (Hosea 6:1-2).

When they do, the Lord will pour out His Spirit of Grace and Supplication. Their eyes will be opened and they will look upon Him who they have pierced and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child. (Zechariah 12:10). Some scholars have suggested that Isaiah 53 will be their official prayer of confession.

On the day the Lord returns He will be King of the whole Earth. On that day there will be one Lord and His name the only name (Zech. 14:9). Then Judah will be inhabited forever and Jerusalem through all generations. Their blood guilt which I have not pardoned, I will pardon. The Lord dwells in Zion (Joel 3:20-21). 2 Chronicles 7:14 will finally be fulfilled.

On three separate occasions just before the Southern Kingdom was conquered by the Babylonians, God told Jeremiah to stop praying for the Jews because He wasn’t listening any more (Jeremiah 7:16, 11:14. 14:11). I believe America may also have reached that point with Him. It’s clear that America’s unbelievers don’t want the Church to save them, and the only believers still fighting for America’s future are the ones who don’t understand what’s ahead for the Church.

In summary, it’s not the Church’s job to save America. Our job is to store up treasure in Heaven by helping those who can no longer help themselves on Earth. In this way we show forth the light and love of the Lord in this dark and dying place. Selah 01-28-12

[iSong6:3]

...the conversation part with the visitor (angel)...

He is coy about a conversation with an angel, I've heard this before.

The premise of the book is clearly against posting rules, no promotion of such things. http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=2

[Cindy S.]

http://c4237997.r97.cf2.rackcdn.com/OTM2012_04_21.mp3

Interesting show from Jan Markell
WOW WOW WOW!

[Jan51]

Let's see...my wife read The Harbinger and told me I had to read it...so I did and just finished it. A good book, though it did raise some questions with me.

I was just reading some reviews on this book and was considering buying it. So I went to amazon.com and read reviews on it, a great way to find out about a book. There are some interesting comments on its seemingly unbiblical take on comparisons between Israel and America, and on the whole "Christian America" thing. So now I'm not so interested in reading it. What were your questions?

[jjmundt]

I was just reading some reviews on this book and was considering buying it. So I went to amazon.com and read reviews on it, a great way to find out about a book. There are some interesting comments on its seemingly unbiblical take on comparisons between Israel and America, and on the whole "Christian America" thing. So now I'm not so interested in reading it. What were your questions?

You've touched on them...I wasn't quite sure about the links between Israel and America. But I would highly recommend the book. Other than that stuff (which comes mostly at the very end), the book is really good.

[jeri559]

I have read The Harbinger. It is a interesting and recommended read due to the parallels it draws between Israel and America which seem to be uncanny.

[LoudRam]

I missed out on this topic but I thought that it needed a second look from a more critical viewpoint. Discernment is a must in this day and age. This review is from T.A. McMahon from The Berean Call.

The full review is here... http://www.thebereancall.org/content...al-discernment This is a small excerpt.

The Harbinger--A Matter of Critical Discernment

The Harbinger is a novel that is becoming very popular among both Christians and non-Christians, even reaching the top of the New York Times best-seller list at this writing. What makes it worthy of review, like other books that we have addressed, is that it offers an important opportunity for believers to exercise critical discernment. In this case, author Jonathan Cahn believes that he has discovered prophetic signs from God that are found in the Old Testament and directly apply to the United States, referring in particular to the events surrounding the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. Because The Harbinger (TH) is a fictional novel with a large dose of nonfiction added (Scripture), this critique involves two aspects: 1) a personal, subjective opinion, and 2) a more objective consideration of the author's application of Scripture in his novel....

....On the other hand, although TH is a fictional account that invites subjective criticism, it makes numerous claims regarding actual signs or harbingers from God--which it attempts to justify by supporting them with Scriptures. God's Word, however, is not fiction. That subjects TH to factual evaluation, because the Bible is God's objective truth. Therefore, we can challenge Cahn's claims objectively by searching the Scriptures to see if they indeed are true (Acts 17:11). As Isaiah wrote, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to [God's] word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20). Jesus reinforced Isaiah's exhortation in His prayer for believers to His Father: "Sanctify [meaning 'set them apart']...through thy truth: thy word is truth" (John 17:17).

The clarion call of The Harbinger, which seems to be quite sincere and one with which all Christians might agree, is that the American people must repent of their evil ways and turn to God in truth. Amen to that! The major problem, however, is the way that the fictional story attempts to encourage such repentance. It declares that God has sent signs--nine harbingers--to the United States as a wake-up call that the country might take heed, repent, and thus ward off His impending judgment. If Cahn is mistaken about the harbingers and multitudes believe what he asserts, then he has led them astray. That is a serious issue and would identify him as a false teacher. Teaching God's people wrongly carries a "greater condemnation" (James 3:1).

The main characters in the story are a journalist and a mysterious prophet. The central contemporary event related to the harbingers is the September 11, 2001, attack on the World Trade Center in New York City. As the fictional story unfolds, it is revealed that the harbingers of warning and judgment are directly related to a prophecy found in the Book of Isaiah. Here is where the major thesis of the book fails the Prophet Isaiah's own challenge of Isaiah 8:20: the author, Jonathan Cahn, has spoken "not according to [God's] word" but has misapplied the scriptures in an attempt to support his own ideas throughout The Harbinger.

Cahn gleans nearly all of his correlations connecting America with a prophecy made to Israel from one verse--Isaiah 9:10. To begin with, this verse applies only to the tribes of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, who, along with the Southern Kingdom of Judah, comprise God's covenant people. All the way through TH, the United States is presented implicitly as a nation in covenant with God. No, God has only one covenant nation--the nation of Israel. This is a critical error of the book. Although that may be overlooked by someone eager to recognize the U.S. in Isaiah's prophecy, one must read the entire context, which begins with verse 8 and runs through verse 21 of chapter 9.

More at the link above.