Brannon Howse radio: How the Emergent Church & New Apostolic Reformation are being peddled by many..

[billiefan2000]

http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worl...howsFlat-20974

Worldview Weekend Radio with Brannon Howse


Topic: How and why the Emergent Church and New Apostolic Reformation are both being embraced by many churches.


Topic: Brannon’s guest is Vince and Lori Williams as they discuss their new book, Falsified: The Danger of False Conversions. Why are there so many false converts in today’s churches? What can parents, grandparents, and pastors do to assist in decreasing the likely hood of false converts?

What is the gospel? This is an encouraging program of the power of the gospel to change lives when properly presented.


How can one know if they are themselves a false convert?



http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worl...howsFlat-20974

[dleader]

This was a good show to listen to. I too was a false convert. I can identify with the couple on the show. It took me until the age of 20 and being trouble to come to the end of myself and realize that I needed Jesus. All of my teenage years I was a liar and a fraud. The interesting part is that my parents instead of assuming I was saved often called me out on it and I would blow them off. I am so glad God got a hold of me. I was baptized 10 years later at the age of 30. It is amazing how many of these stories are really out there and makes me wonder about friends from the past if they are really saved. As was stated on the show that the emergent movement and so on will tell people that they are okay because that is what their itching ears want to hear.

[morovich]

You can read sections of this book on Google books. Just got through the first few parts of it. There are definite Reformed/Calvinistic undertones right off the bat- to each his own on that one. Paul Washer and Ray Comfort/Kirk Cameron/Way of the Master already name-dropped- which really bakes my scrod as WOTM is teaching a twisted form of "metanoia" the Greek word for repentance and make it out to be "clean your act up- turn from your sin, THEN and only THEN will you be able to come to God and be saved". The Gospel's framing during Jesus' day was for unbelieving Israel to change their mind and actually believe that THIS MAN was the promised Messiah. There is the sense that there is more to be had and learned by crawling up Mt. Sinai than Mt. Calvary. There are also some mildly dicey misappropriations of Scripture (2 Cor. 5:17 for starters) already and Vince's testimony with his apparent post-salvation "return to to Law, the 10 commandments and the Semon on the Mount" is completely in line with the Reformed blurring of the lines between faith and fruit, salvation and sanctification and their order or quantity/depth. I'm not even 20 pages in and there are some rojo flags. I agree with the whole "every-Southern Baptist-is-saved-because-they-repeated-a-prayer-at-6-in- Sunday School-and-rode-that-wave-till-they-were-35-and-found-that-it-really-didn't-save-them" vibe, but if they're going to be looking at the level and amount of fruit to determine true conversion, i.e. corroborating their justification by way of the depth, fervor, frequency and intensity of their sanctification- well, that would create a great forum for debate imho.


Into the chapter now about the seeker movement....pretty darn, darn spot on here. They're nailing the head on this one, and that's about all the Google Books preview will give me.

[dleader]

I did also catch on the undertones but that was not what convicted me at 20. I too find the "clean up your act before you can come to God" disgusting too. I was a fraud and a liar and needed Jesus to cleanse those sins from me as well as all others that I have committed. I agree it is rare but not impossible that young children can come to such a conclusion. But following the LS teaching takes the joy out of being a Christian and it is a false gospel anyway. Good point to bring up.

[HeIsEnough]

but if they're going to be looking at the level and amount of fruit to determine true conversion, i.e. corroborating their justification by way of the depth, fervor, frequency and intensity of their sanctification- well, that would create a great forum for debate imho.

Where ya been, you've missed them!

Similar to the Reformers themselves, they believe they are doing a second reformation perhaps, who knows. I've never liked the term "false convert", its not biblical in the sense there something we can do about it.

The scriptures themselves clearly teach some will receive the word with joy, but its to no consequence in the end, they never believed the gospel, and no amount of pointing out to someone who never believed the gospel is going to help, all you have to give them is the gospel, which they've already not believed. A circular endeavor if there ever was one.

The gospel itself produces salvation, pretenders and rejectors, who can ensure one will be in the salvation category? We can't. Doesn't mean they still don't hear teaching about faith and hope, admonitions to make their calling and election sure, it just means to me that we are not to 'target' these so called false converts, they are false for reasons other than not hearing it correctly or something, the scriptures speak much about them. They also, I believe, point out that if one does 'target' them, they'll injure the wheat in the process. I think that is what we sense from the wotm and the Washer sermons, and the thrust of these types of ministries.

[Jacinth]

The gospel itself produces salvation, pretenders and rejectors, who can ensure one will be in the salvation category? We can't. Doesn't mean they still don't hear teaching about faith and hope, admonitions to make their calling and election sure, it just means to me that we are not to 'target' these so called false converts, they are false for reasons other than not hearing it correctly or something, the scriptures speak much about them. They also, I believe, point out that if one does 'target' them, they'll injure the wheat in the process. I think that is what we sense from the wotm and the Washer sermons, and the thrust of these types of ministries.

hmm...interesting way of putting it...

[morovich]

I would say that there's more danger for those who refuse, either intentionally or inadvertently, to abide by Romans 4:5- who cannot or will not cease from their own strivings and enter into the Sabbath rest of Christ's finished work and not rely on even a scintilla of self-effort or merit. I'd be more concerned about those people as opposed to people who may be in a fruitless season of drought (who pharasaically might be pegged as "false converts") who could later produce beautiful and bountiful harvests.