How did an entire doctrine get built around 1 John 1:9?

[Wally]

And we are to be filled, renewed, conformed. I believe these are active present tense words. Things that should be happening.

And it should evidence our faith.


Colossians 3:9-11 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Perhaps you never felt out in the cold. Alone, missing out, silence. Perhaps you've not felt the warmth of His smile when you taken another baby step.

Some are futher along in their walk than others.

But then Paul died daily. Each day a new adventure in growing, conforming, doing His will.

And when you've blown a day through stupid stuff done, and wake up to the fact, don't you love the refreshing rain of His mercy and grace.... when we are honest with Him - confessing our mistakes?
But then did He withhold it from us? Or were we not prepared for the application?

Perhaps fellowship is more merged with feeling - emotion. But we can only experience it through honesty. For He is Truth.

[Jan51]

I've been looking in e-sword. It looks like "asking" for forgiveness is more an Old Testament concept than a New Testament one. In the New Testament, forgiveness is promised for belief and repentance. Confessing is not the same as asking for forgiveness. The Old Testament speaks quite a bit about confessions of sin. In I John 1:9, it speaks of confession of sin, but most of the rest of the New Testament uses "confession" to speak of confessing Christ.

[Buzzardhut]

I've been looking in e-sword. It looks like "asking" for forgiveness is more an Old Testament concept than a New Testament one. In the New Testament, forgiveness is promised for belief and repentance. Confessing is not the same as asking for forgiveness. The Old Testament speaks quite a bit about confessions of sin. In I John 1:9, it speaks of confession of sin, but most of the rest of the New Testament uses "confession" to speak of confessing Christ.

Correct, just like when you offend your spouse, you don't lose your marriage but apologize and ask for forgiveness to heal/strengthen the relationship.

[Kliska]

One way of looking at it; it isn't a matter of "need" or "necessity." When I'm in a human relationship, such as with my husband, father, mother, brother, etc... I don't HAVE to tell them I love them, or tell them I'm sorry, it just flows from my relationship. It's the difference between living by law vs. living by faith... or living by the letter vs. living by the Spirit. The Spirit of the whole of scripture on this concept is to 1) admit we are sinners 2) admit when we slip up and commit a sinful act.

Correct, just like when you offend your spouse, you don't lose your marriage but apologize and ask for forgiveness to heal/strengthen the relationship.

[HeIsEnough]

Wally, very very clutch verse there. A breaking in fellowship is clearly implied. The Greek word for hindered denotes a military tone where an army would dig a trench and lay debris out so it would make the opposing forces' ability to pass tougher. Is it possibly hindrance from a Satanic source- principalities and powers, etc? A la daniel's prayer that took a while to answer because Gabriel was held up by Satan?

Its not clear what you consider a 'break in fellowship'. If you've sinned, and you have, and you are not back to the place you once were, you are 'further away' in fellowship. If you walk back to the consuming fire of a God, you'll be asking for forgiveness when you bow before Him. I know when I've limped back, its the first thing on the heart and from the mouth, forgive me Father. This may be a case where you don't need scripture to explain it, it just is. To be too casual with the Lord is not the best place for any of us, while we are still in this flesh, imo.

[waiting1]

What a great discussion over just one verse! Alot has been said and I would expect even more can and will be.

[morovich]

Should we be limping back as servants or boldy approaching the throne of grace as sons? (not on our own merit of course, but on the merit of Christ alone and positionally and practically what He's wrought in us). Is there a condition on boldy approaching?

[jonshaff]

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So, how would one renew/reconcile fellowship?

[Kliska]

Should we be limping back as servants or boldy approaching the throne of grace as sons? (not on our own merit of course, but on the merit of Christ alone and positionally and practically what He's wrought in us). Is there a condition on boldy approaching?

It almost seems like you wouldn't have us approach the throne of grace at all.

We are to boldly approach the throne as sons, and not count it contradictory to approach as slaves whilst serving on this earth. Paul had no problem with it, neither do I. Again, this is about relationship, not "have to."

[Wally]

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart— These, O God, You will not despise.

Boldness in that we know He loves us and will not reject us.

Humility in truth of what we are. Saved Sinners who merit nothing. Grace is Grace.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So, how would one renew/reconcile fellowship?

Re-Establish.

[Steve53]

Should we be limping back as servants or boldy approaching the throne of grace as sons? ...Is there a condition on boldy approaching?

Being humbly contrite when contrition is called for given the condition of your heart and the state of your conscience.

[HeIsEnough]

Is there a condition on boldy approaching?

When the Lord makes provision to approach His throne for salvation provided in the Son, then we go boldly to the throne to receive mercy and grace.

When a man is looking for those things, they signify pardon, which means guilt, which means asking for forgiveness.

I look at it in the sense of the holy mountain, no man would dare approach it to step on it. It would not have been bold for the Israelites to have stepped on the mountain, but foolish. Now, we have invitation and opportunity to step on the holy mountain of God, and it will still take boldness to approach it, to not be afraid.

[Jan51]

If indeed all our sins were already paid for on the cross, then perhaps rather than asking for forgiveness, our prayer of confession should be followed by thankfulness and gratitude that we are forgiven.

[morovich]

I like your logic Jan....

Also, in Hebrews 4:16 regarding boldess, the Greek implication is not that it "requires boldness" or a "mustering of courage" to approach the holy mountain, it implies openness and confidence- almost the picture of a prince who is troubled by something and charging up to the doors of the throne room past the sentries and thrusting open the door to enter and go consult with his Father, the King. Just a thought. We're not approaching Sinai but Calvary.

[Steve53]

.... it implies openness and confidence....

...with faith and humilty and absent arrogance.

[Alex]

If indeed all our sins were already paid for on the cross, then perhaps rather than asking for forgiveness, our prayer of confession should be followed by thankfulness and gratitude that we are forgiven.

If you are a child of God's then your sins ARE already paid in full no if's about it.

What boostering that would be not to ask for forgiveness; and soon without forgiveness on our hearts, we would forget we have sinned in the first place and quickly we would find no need for God.

[HeIsEnough]

Also, in Hebrews 4:16 regarding boldess, the Greek implication is not that it "requires boldness" or a "mustering of courage" to approach the holy mountain, it implies openness and confidence- almost the picture of a prince who is troubled by something and charging up to the doors of the throne room past the sentries and thrusting open the door to enter and go consult with his Father, the King. Just a thought. We're not approaching Sinai but Calvary.

Hebrews 4
¹⁶Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

One only has need for mercy when one needs it, and we confidently know we will receive it.

Look, none of the mods posting here agrees with the 'slave' whoa-is-me mentality, we do have confidence before the Lord. I would just caution none to have arrogance before the Lord, especially arrogance of sin being "no big deal, i'm forgiven already." We all must work these things out between us and God. Not saying anyone here is claiming it I don't think, but if one sins and thinks nothing of it, thats just foolish and crazy, the correction and discipline by God will be harsh. Then the believer will realize that ya, it does matter.

[morovich]

agreed heisenough..

[Kliska]

One only has need for mercy when one needs it, and we confidently know we will receive it.

Look, none of the mods posting here agrees with the 'slave' whoa-is-me mentality, we do have confidence before the Lord. I would just caution none to have arrogance before the Lord, especially arrogance of sin being "no big deal, i'm forgiven already." We all must work these things out between us and God. Not saying anyone here is claiming it I don't think, but if one sins and thinks nothing of it, thats just foolish and crazy, the correction and discipline by God will be harsh. Then the believer will realize that ya, it does matter.

Precisely right! This is indeed the kind of attitude Paul fought. Taking the idea of the "prince" going into the throne room; even princes are expected to kneel to the king, and treat him with respect, or else the king will chastise and correct the prince. And, should the prince do something against the honor of the king, he'd better be making it plain to the king that he regrets his misconduct.

[Luminary]

When the disciples asked the Lord how they should pray, the Lord answered with:

"Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses and we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory forever. Amen."

Why include the request for forgiveness as we ask for our daily bread (implying that we should pray to the Father daily, if not more), if we are not to request forgiveness on a daily basis? In my mind, asking for this directly from the Father doesn't mean that the Lord's work on the cross was insufficient and I therefore must pick up the slack. Far from it. Rather, it is me being aware of each sin I commit and honest in His presence for two purposes: so that I may recognize sin at all times in order to make turning away from it easier whenever possible (how can I always turn from a stone if I do not see the stone, in other words), and to acknowledge not only His matchless character, but also to heighten my gratefulness for the gift of His grace. The fact that I can even ask for forgiveness and know that I will receive it because of Jesus Christ *always* reminds me of how magnificent His gift really is.

Anyway...just my thoughts on the matter. Ultimately, I'm not sure of the answer.