How did an entire doctrine get built around 1 John 1:9?

[HeIsEnough]

When the disciples asked the Lord how they should pray, the Lord answered with:

"Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses and we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory forever. Amen."

Why include the request for forgiveness as we ask for our daily bread (implying that we should pray to the Father daily, if not more), if we are not to request forgiveness on a daily basis? In my mind, asking for this directly from the Father doesn't mean that the Lord's work on the cross was insufficient and I therefore must pick up the slack. Far from it. Rather, it is me being aware of each sin I commit and honest in His presence for two purposes: so that I may recognize sin at all times in order to make turning away from it easier whenever possible (how can I always turn from a stone if I do not see the stone, in other words), and to acknowledge not only His matchless character, but also to heighten my gratefulness for the gift of His grace. The fact that I can even ask for forgiveness and know that I will receive it because of Jesus Christ *always* reminds me of how magnificent His gift really is.

Anyway...just my thoughts on the matter. Ultimately, I'm not sure of the answer.

The 'issue' comes up through the later doctrine by Paul, not necessarily Christ's words. Some believe Paul brought a different teaching than Christ, at least in certain ways, and this subject obviously being one of them.

[Jan51]

When the disciples asked the Lord how they should pray, the Lord answered with:

"Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses and we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory forever. Amen."

Why include the request for forgiveness as we ask for our daily bread (implying that we should pray to the Father daily, if not more), if we are not to request forgiveness on a daily basis? In my mind, asking for this directly from the Father doesn't mean that the Lord's work on the cross was insufficient and I therefore must pick up the slack. Far from it. Rather, it is me being aware of each sin I commit and honest in His presence for two purposes: so that I may recognize sin at all times in order to make turning away from it easier whenever possible (how can I always turn from a stone if I do not see the stone, in other words), and to acknowledge not only His matchless character, but also to heighten my gratefulness for the gift of His grace. The fact that I can even ask for forgiveness and know that I will receive it because of Jesus Christ *always* reminds me of how magnificent His gift really is.

Anyway...just my thoughts on the matter. Ultimately, I'm not sure of the answer.

Might this have anything to do with the fact that Jesus had not yet gone to the cross and paid for all sin forever? Technically, didn't He say this during the age of Law? Wasn't He presenting Himself to Israel as their Messiah and telling them what was required for life in the kingdom if they indeed did accept Him as the prophesied Messiah? Of course that didn't happen, so then He went on to offer Himself to the Gentiles also, thus the beginning of the church age and the postponement of the kingdom.

I love the Lord's Prayer. I don't pray it word for word, but as I have grown in my understanding of the Bible, I see it as a framework, and instead of asking for the things it says to ask, I realize that mostly I just need to thank God that He is already doing those things! And of course I elaborate on each of the phrases, adding names and specific concerns that I am praying about or thanking Him about.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Might this have anything to do with the fact that Jesus had not yet gone to the cross and paid for all sin forever? Technically, didn't He say this during the age of Law? Wasn't He presenting Himself to Israel as their Messiah and telling them what was required for life in the kingdom if they indeed did accept Him as the prophesied Messiah? Of course that didn't happen, so then He went on to offer Himself to the Gentiles also, thus the beginning of the church age and the postponement of the kingdom.

I love the Lord's Prayer. I don't pray it word for word, but as I have grown in my understanding of the Bible, I see it as a framework, and instead of asking for the things it says to ask, I realize that mostly I just need to thank God that He is already doing those things! And of course I elaborate on each of the phrases, adding names and specific concerns that I am praying about or thanking Him about.

I pretty much agree with you.

[HeIsEnough]

Might this have anything to do with the fact that Jesus had not yet gone to the cross and paid for all sin forever? Technically, didn't He say this during the age of Law? Wasn't He presenting Himself to Israel as their Messiah and telling them what was required for life in the kingdom if they indeed did accept Him as the prophesied Messiah? Of course that didn't happen, so then He went on to offer Himself to the Gentiles also, thus the beginning of the church age and the postponement of the kingdom.

I don't believe its that simple. The Lords plans are like an interwoven mystery. Christ prepared the way for the Church as well, the most obvious was the disciples themselves. He trained and gifted them to present the gospel to Kings, to the Gentiles, and to Israel, knowing they would not accept Him as Messiah. He was in the time of the law of Moses, yet came to nail it to the cross. He lived in it, but pointed elsewhere, knowing the scriptures must be fulfilled, He was the lamb who took away the sins of the world, He was born to die, and it was planned before the world actually existed. He also knew the only way to be in the kingdom, was to be born from above, born of the Spirit. He knew the commands they would keep, would need to be in His power, just as it is for us.

I believe He knew that nobody really 'got it', except perhaps one or two souls, it took the Helper and Counselor to reveal all that Christ did, and we probably still don't know everything to this day. It was never meant for Him to reign on earth, in that day, but it was Israels choice to make, God just knew what they would do beforehand, and prophesied about it before they did it.

[Jan51]

I don't believe its that simple. The Lords plans are like an interwoven mystery. Christ prepared the way for the Church as well, the most obvious was the disciples themselves. He trained and gifted them to present the gospel to Kings, to the Gentiles, and to Israel, knowing they would not accept Him as Messiah. He was in the time of the law of Moses, yet came to nail it to the cross. He lived in it, but pointed elsewhere, knowing the scriptures must be fulfilled, He was the lamb who took away the sins of the world, He was born to die, and it was planned before the world actually existed. He also knew the only way to be in the kingdom, was to be born from above, born of the Spirit. He knew the commands they would keep, would need to be in His power, just as it is for us.

I believe He knew that nobody really 'got it', except perhaps one or two souls, it took the Helper and Counselor to reveal all that Christ did, and we probably still don't know everything to this day. It was never meant for Him to reign on earth, in that day, but it was Israels choice to make, God just knew what they would do beforehand, and prophesied about it before they did it.

Oh, I agree! Even though He offered them the kingdom, He knew they wouldn't take it. He knew He was going to turn to the Gentiles. Yes, it was all prophesied, and known from eternity past. Yet that doesn't mean men are robots, making pre-programmed choices. We are held responsible for those choices, because we make them with our own free will. It's that mysterious paradox of sovereignty and free will.

[Steve53]

... It's that mysterious paradox of sovereignty and free will.

Since there is no contradiction in an all knowing God allowing man free will, I've never seen the paradox.

[Jan51]

Since there is no contradiction in an all knowing God allowing man free will, I've never seen the paradox.

Well, sovereignty includes not only knowing all, but predestining/ordaining. I think that's where some of our minds might have a little troubling wrapping around it.

[Kliska]

Well, sovereignty includes not only knowing all, but predestining/ordaining. I think that's where some of our minds might have a little troubling wrapping around it.

The thing to remember is the predestining/ordaining was based on foreknowledge according to scripture. The scriptural way of looking at predestining/ordaining is that God foreknows "first" and then preordains. As He is outside of time, that description is limited but the idea is that God does not force mankind's decisions, He foreknows.

[HeIsEnough]

Oh, I agree! Even though He offered them the kingdom, He knew they wouldn't take it. He knew He was going to turn to the Gentiles. Yes, it was all prophesied, and known from eternity past. Yet that doesn't mean men are robots, making pre-programmed choices. We are held responsible for those choices, because we make them with our own free will. It's that mysterious paradox of sovereignty and free will.

Well, sovereignty includes not only knowing all, but predestining/ordaining. I think that's where some of our minds might have a little troubling wrapping around it.

If one has an improper view (calvinist, deterministic) of "predestining/ordaining", then they will create a paradox, at least in their own mind.

And actually, sadly, they remove the "paradox" they create by claiming it was God's sovereign will that 'the many' would be forever destined for hell, nothing they can do to change it, born for the lake of fire, mans 'will' having nothing to do with it.

That is not how God relates it to us in scripture, they sully the character of the Lord.

[Steve53]

Well, sovereignty includes not only knowing all, but predestining/ordaining. I think that's where some of our minds might have a little troubling wrapping around it.

Please don't overlook the two responses immediately preceding this one.

[Jan51]

The thing to remember is the predestining/ordaining was based on foreknowledge according to scripture. The scriptural way of looking at predestining/ordaining is that God foreknows "first" and then preordains.

I have never heard that before.

As He is outside of time, that description is limited but the idea is that God does not force mankind's decisions, He foreknows.

I agree, God does not force any decision, otherwise He could not hold us responsible for our decisions.

And actually, sadly, they remove the "paradox" they create by claiming it was God's sovereign will that 'the many' would be forever destined for hell, nothing they can do to change it, born for the lake of fire, mans 'will' having nothing to do with it.

That is not how God relates it to us in scripture, they sully the character of the Lord.

I agree--nowhere is it stated that the wicked are "predestined" for hell.

What do you all think of this? Once I had a pastor tell me that the only references to predestination are to the righteous, never to the wicked.

[Kliska]

I have never heard that before.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I've asked some Calvinists that believe in God electing people for no apparent reason what God was "foreknowing" here; they couldn't answer. So, I pointed out all the passages where God commands us to have faith in His Son. That shows that He expects us to respond, and salvation is by grace through faith, and it is an act of our will to place our faith in the Son. Since the passage is about salvation; God foreknows exactly who will and who will not place their faith on Christ.

I agree, God does not force any decision, otherwise He could not hold us responsible for our decisions.

[Jan51]

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Thanks.

[morovich]

How did this thread somehow morph into a Calvy thread?

HAHA

[Kliska]

How did this thread somehow morph into a Calvy thread?

HAHA

Because Calvinism has it's tentacles into all areas of theology. There are even people who are affected by Calvinism that don't realize it.

[morovich]

Kliska,

HILARIOUS!!!

It's like the black smoke on Lost- it's everywhere- and primarily when you least expect it!

[makeupgirl]

I never know or got the indication that a doctrine was built around 1 John 1:9? I thought that verse was very clear "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

We have to understanding OP that when we are out of fellowship with the Lord, then we must make things right; but we as his children should know, we're never lose our sonship with him. The blood of Jesus is continiously washing us because "what can wash away our sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus". So, when we confess our sins, we're forgiven and it's remember no more. Remember, Jesus died for past, present, and future sins.

[Jan51]

Here's another thought about I John 1:9, also from the pastor I mentioned above. It could be that "to forgive our sins" is a parallel phrase to "and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." But he thought that maybe the second phrase was saying something different than the first. Maybe it means that if we confess our known sins, then God will go further and even cleanse us from the sins we are unaware of. Because of our sin nature, aren't we tainted in every way--even our best thoughts and actions are tainted with selfish, impure motives. Might that be how God deals with that? What do you guys think?

[HeIsEnough]

What do you all think of this? Once I had a pastor tell me that the only references to predestination are to the righteous, never to the wicked.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son...

The "destiny" for believers in the age of grace, is to be conformed to the image of Christ, to be imitators of Christ, they "live" like Christ lived, and all the numerous ways the scriptures tell us we are being made to be like Christ. It is this way for us, it was not this way for those before Christ, they were not 'predestined' before He walked among us. In this way, this scripture actually confines its context to believers in the church age. It places men, who live in a certain time, to be blessed to be transformed into the 'likeness' of Jesus Christ.

It would be a strange thing to put this upon Abraham, for instance, so was Abraham not predestined? The answer is not in the man, as in the man was somehow predestined apart from any other consideration. The answer is that when God does this new thing, when He brings this new covenant, those who love Him will be on the path to be conformed to the image of Christ. Not the law, not some other way God prepared. The "destiny" in it, as being what Christ Himself said, "I am the way", e.g., believing and conforming to Christ is the believers destiny in the age of grace. Hope that made sense.

Here's another thought about I John 1:9, also from the pastor I mentioned above. It could be that "to forgive our sins" is a parallel phrase to "and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." But he thought that maybe the second phrase was saying something different than the first. Maybe it means that if we confess our known sins, then God will go further and even cleanse us from the sins we are unaware of. Because of our sin nature, aren't we tainted in every way--even our best thoughts and actions are tainted with selfish, impure motives. Might that be how God deals with that? What do you guys think?

I tend to think the phrases have the same outcome, so its hard to see the first phrase a condition for the second. Its just a natural course of a born again believer still living in the flesh. They sin, even while all their sin is forgiven, they still bring it to God for "cleansing", the natural path of sanctification. I see what the OP is saying, we see people in this world who claim Christ, but have no faith in the victory, in a sense they appear as if they don't believe God has forgiven them, the image in my mind being like the monks of old who continually beat themselves, thinking this will "appease that big angry God in the sky". I wouldn't call this a doctrine, its just ignorance of scripture.