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Thread: Could he be saved?

  1. #1
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    Default Could he be saved?

    I have been studying 1 John and I came to this passage: "Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also." 1 John 2:22-23. I read this to mean that anyone who denies Christ (His deity?) is not saved. I grew up in a "Christian" home, went to church, Sunday School, Christian school, made the decision to trust Christ when I was 13. My dad taught me the fundamentals of Christian doctrine. Now, my dad is involved in the Hebrew Roots cult, and he denies that Jesus is God. He says that Jesus is Messiah, but just a special man that God used to save mankind. He denies the doctrine of the Trinity, believes that the "word of God" is infallible but that the Bible is not, does not accept any of the letters of Paul, and has even doubted my salvation because I do not believe the way he does.
    In verse 19, John says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." Could this mean that my dad has never been saved? This tears my heart. Instead of my entire family being saved as I have always thought, now it's just my mom and I, and my mom is following a lot of the Emergent teachings. And if my dad is not saved, how do I present salvation to him? He already has all the head knowledge of the Bible. He believes he is saved. Any insights would be helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by my2babysmama View Post
    I have been studying 1 John and I came to this passage: "Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also." 1 John 2:22-23. I read this to mean that anyone who denies Christ (His deity?) is not saved. I grew up in a "Christian" home, went to church, Sunday School, Christian school, made the decision to trust Christ when I was 13. My dad taught me the fundamentals of Christian doctrine. Now, my dad is involved in the Hebrew Roots cult, and he denies that Jesus is God. He says that Jesus is Messiah, but just a special man that God used to save mankind. He denies the doctrine of the Trinity, believes that the "word of God" is infallible but that the Bible is not, does not accept any of the letters of Paul, and has even doubted my salvation because I do not believe the way he does.
    In verse 19, John says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." Could this mean that my dad has never been saved? This tears my heart. Instead of my entire family being saved as I have always thought, now it's just my mom and I, and my mom is following a lot of the Emergent teachings. And if my dad is not saved, how do I present salvation to him? He already has all the head knowledge of the Bible. He believes he is saved. Any insights would be helpful.
    This is a tough one, but remember, there is always hope. My main focus would indeed be 1) praying for him and 2) Talking to him about the deity of Jesus. Focus on supporting scripture, like Zechariah 12:10, verses in Isaiah, Revelation chapter 1 (paying attention to verses like 1:18). Also, if he does accept Peter as having accurate teaching, you can show that Peter deemed Paul's writings as scripture, just as sure as the OT writings. I would also focus on the fact of perfection, and Jesus' own words in the NT about Himself.

    The question of his salvation is a tough one; all I can say is that if he ever faithed Jesus as Lord (God and Messiah), then he is saved, but it is possible that he did not. Instead of assuming one or the other, ongoing conversation and dialogue are important.

    Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig

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    I'm not up to speed on the Hebrew Roots religion, but if they believe Jesus was the Messiah, then wouldn't that in effect make Him God? I seem to always read articles I want to respond to when I'm at work, but a verse that comes to mind goes something like....."and He shall save His people from their sins". This verse was a prophecy relating to the coming Messiah. Well, the Jews believe that only God can cleanse people of their sins. So logic would dictate that if this group believes that Jesus was the Messiah, and that the Messiah would be the one to save them of their sins, then they would have to believe He was God as well?

    Obviously, prayer will be your most important weapon in this battle, but I would definately focus on all the prophecies related to the coming Messiah and then show him how Jesus fulfilled them. Jesus used this very same tactic even with John the Baptist. When John was in prison, he sent some of his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the Messiah. Jesus didn't respond with a yes or no, but he said, go back and tell John that the sick are healed etc.... Basically He was saying, I'm fulfilling prophecy, what more proof do you need?

    And not only prophecy, but God gave many examples/events in the OT to help us understand what was going to happen in the NT. Some of the good ones u can use would be the passover feast. If you study the whole event, you will find that Jesus duplicated that entire event to a T.

    Also, the event where Moses made a serpent and placed it on a wooden pole (a cross perhaps) and lifted it up and all who looked upon it were saved. Jesus stated that He would be lifted up (on the cross) and in fact, was.

    The best one is Daniel's vision where he was told EXACTLY when the Messiah would arrive, right down to the day. Even the wisemen from the east knew this. But if one studies the time frames given Daniel, then one could derive the exact day that the Messiah would come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodzeee View Post
    I'm not up to speed on the Hebrew Roots religion, but if they believe Jesus was the Messiah, then wouldn't that in effect make Him God?
    For a more complete answer to your question I'll yield to my colleagues who are better versed on the Hebrew belief systems, including Hebrew Roots but the short answer is no. There is also a huge distinction between Hebrew Roots and Judaism that cannot be ignored yet I too am not well versed enough in the nuances to help much further.

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



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    Here's a few primers from GQ's that may help until a few of our other Mods can weigh in ....

    Question: "What is the Hebrew Roots movement?"

    Answer:
    The premise of the Hebrew Roots movement is the belief that the Church has veered far from the true teachings and Hebrew concepts of the Bible. The movement maintains that Christianity has been indoctrinated with the culture and beliefs of Greek and Roman philosophy and that ultimately biblical Christianity, taught in churches today, has been corrupted with a pagan imitation of the New Testament gospels.

    Those of the Hebrew Roots belief hold to the teaching that Christ's death on the cross did not end the Mosaic Covenant, but instead renewed it, expanded its message, and wrote it on the hearts of His true followers. They teach that the understanding of the New Testament can only come from a Hebrew perspective and that the teachings of the Apostle Paul are not understood clearly or taught correctly by Christian pastors today. Many affirm the existence of an original Hebrew-language New Testament and, in some cases, denigrate the existing New Testament text written in Greek. This becomes a subtle attack on the reliability of the text of our Bible. If the Greek text is unreliable and has been corrupted, as is charged by some, the Church no longer has a standard of truth.

    Although there are many different and diverse Hebrew Roots assemblies with variations in their teachings, they all adhere to a common emphasis on recovering the "original" Jewishness of Christianity. Their assumption is that the Church has lost its Jewish roots and is unaware that Jesus and His disciples were Jews living in obedience to the Torah. For the most part, those involved advocate the need for every believer to walk a Torah-observant life. This means that the ordinances of the Mosaic Covenant must be a central focus in the lifestyle of believers today as it was with the Old Testament Jews of Israel. Keeping the Torah includes keeping the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week (Saturday), celebrating the Jewish feasts and festivals, keeping the dietary laws, avoiding the "paganism" of Christianity (Christmas, Easter, etc.), and learning to understand the Scriptures from a Hebrew mindset. They teach that Gentile Christians have been grafted into Israel, and this is one reason every born-again believer in Jesus the Messiah is to participate in these observances. It is expressed that doing this is not required out of legalistic bondage, but out of a heart of love and obedience. However, they teach that to live a life that pleases God, this Torah-observant walk must be part of that life.

    The Hebrew Roots assemblies are often made up of a majority of Gentiles, including Gentile rabbis. Usually they prefer to be identified as "Messianic Christians." Many have come to the conclusion that God has "called" them to be Jewish and have accepted the theological position that the Torah (Old Testament law) is equally binding on Gentiles and Jews alike. They often wear articles of traditional Jewish clothing, practice Davidic dancing, and incorporate Hebrew names and phrases into their writing and conversations. Most reject the use of the name "Jesus" in favor of Yeshua or YHWH, claiming that these are the "true" names that God desires for Himself. In most cases, they elevate the Torah as the foundational teaching for the Church, which brings about the demotion of the New Testament, causing it to become secondary in importance and only to be understood in light of the Old Testament. The idea that the New Testament is faulty and relevant only in light of the Old Testament has also brought the doctrine of the Trinity under attack by many advocates of the Hebrew Roots beliefs.

    As opposed to what the Hebrew Roots movement claims, the New Testament teachings of the Apostle Paul are perfectly clear and self-explanatory. Colossians 2:16, 17 says, "Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day – things which are a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." Romans 14:5 states, "One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind." Scripture clearly indicates that these issues are a matter of personal choice. These verses and many others give clear evidence that the Mosaic Covenant laws and ordinances have ended. Continuing to teach that the Old Covenant is still in effect in spite of what the New Testament teaches, or twisting the New Testament to agree with the Hebrew Roots beliefs, is false teaching.

    There are aspects of the Hebrew Roots teachings that certainly can be beneficial. Seeking to explore the Jewish culture and perspective, within which most of the Bible was written, opens and enriches our understanding of the Scriptures, adding insight and depth to many of the passages, parables and idioms. There is nothing wrong with Gentiles and Jews joining together in celebrating the feasts and enjoying a Messianic style of worship. Taking part in these events and learning the way in which the Jews understood the teachings of our Lord can be a tool, giving us greater effectiveness in reaching the unbelieving Jew with the gospel. It is good for Gentiles, in the body of the Messiah, to identify in our fellowship with Israel. However, to identify with Israel is different from identifying "as" Israel.

    Gentile believers are not grafted into the Judaism of the Mosaic Covenant; they are grafted into the seed and faith of Abraham, which preceded the Law and Jewish customs. They are fellow citizens with the saints (Ephesians 2:19), but they are not Jews. Paul explains this clearly when he tells those who were circumcised (the Jews) "not to seek to be uncircumcised" and those who were uncircumcised (the Gentiles) "not to become circumcised" (1 Corinthians 7:18). There is no need for either group to feel they must become what they are not. Instead, God has made Jews and Gentiles into "one new man" in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:15). This "new man" is referring to the Church, the body of Christ, which is made up of neither Jew nor Gentile (Galatians 3:27-29). It's important for Jews and Gentiles to remain authentic in their own identity. In this way a clear picture of the unity of the body of Christ can be seen as Jews and Gentiles are united by one Lord, one faith, one baptism. If Gentiles are grafted into Israel, becoming Jews, the purpose and picture of both Jew and Gentile, coming together as one new man, is lost. God never intended Gentiles to become one in Israel, but one in Christ.

    The influence of this movement is working its way into our churches and seminaries. It's dangerous in its implication that keeping the Old Covenant law is walking a "higher path" and is the only way to please God and receive His blessings. Nowhere in the Bible do we find Gentile believers being instructed to follow Levitical laws or Jewish customs; in fact, the opposite is taught. Romans 7:6 says, "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Christ, in keeping perfectly every ordinance of the Mosaic Law, completely fulfilled it. Just as making the final payment on a home fulfills that contract and ends one’s obligation to it, so also Christ has made the final payment and has fulfilled the law, bringing it to an end for us all.

    It is God Himself who has created a world of people with different cultures, languages and traditions. God is glorified when we accept one another in love and come together in unity as "one" in Christ Jesus. It's important to understand that there is no superiority in being born Jewish or Gentile. We who are followers of Christ, comprised of many different cultures and lifestyles, are all of value and greatly loved because we've entered into the family of God. http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrew-roots.html

    Question: "Are Jews saved because they are God's chosen people? Do Jews have to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved?"

    Answer:
    Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me” (John 14:6). The “no one” He referred to includes Jews and Gentiles. Jews are not saved because they are God’s chosen people, but because they believe in Jesus Christ as their true Messiah. There are many Messianic Jews who have accepted Yeshua (the Hebrew word for “Jesus”) as their Messiah.

    However, there is no doubt that the Jews are still God’s chosen people. “For you are a holy people unto the LORD your God: the LORD your God hath chosen you to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers…” (Deuteronomy 7:6-8).

    From all the nations and people on the earth, why exactly did God “choose” the Jews? John Gill, in his Exposition of the Entire Bible, says the Jews were “chosen for special service and worship, and to enjoy special privileges and benefits, civil and religious; though they were not chosen to special grace…or eternal glory.” The Jews were chosen to be a blessing to all the nations of the earth (Genesis 12). The Jews were chosen to be a light to the Gentiles. So then, are all Jews “saved” just because they are Jews?

    According to many modern rabbinical scholars the Christian concept of salvation from sin has no equal in Judaism. Judaism does not believe that man, by his nature, is evil or sinful and therefore believes that man has no need to be “saved” from an eternal damnation. In fact, most Jews today do not believe in a place of eternal punishment or a literal hell. The Hebrew root word for “sin” is chayt, which literally means “to miss the mark.” It is a term commonly used in archery, of one who “misses the mark” of the bull’s-eye. When a Jew misses the mark and occasionally falls into the sin of failing to fulfill the laws of God, the belief is that he can obtain forgiveness through prayer, repentance and doing good deeds.

    The book of Leviticus (17:11), the third book of the Torah, clearly gives the prescription for forgiveness: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.” The temple sacrifice was always the centerpiece for Jewish atonement. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), the Levitical High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies in the temple and sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the mercy seat. Through this yearly act, atonement was made for the sins of all Israel, but the Holy Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70, and for almost 2,000 years, Jews have been without a temple, a sacrifice, and a means of atonement.

    The Brit Chadasha (the New Covenant or New Testament) teaches us that the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ, came to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) precisely at the time preceding the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. “But when Messiah arrived as a High Priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more complete Tabernacle, not made with hands—that is, not of this creation—and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered into the Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been made common, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Messiah, Who through the eternal Spirit, offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the Living God?” (Hebrews 9:11-14).

    The New Testament teaches that all of us, Jews and Gentiles, have “missed the mark” (Romans 3:23). All of us are under the consequences of sin, and “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). We are all in need of salvation from our sin; we are all in need of a Savior. The New Testament teaches that Jesus the Messiah is “the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father” but through Him (John 14:6) And, most importantly, “there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which it is necessary for us to be saved" (Acts 4:12).

    For the Jews, Jesus the Messiah has come as High Priest and through His once-for-all sacrifice for sin offers complete atonement to all people. For there is “no distinction” between Jew and Gentile (Romans 10:12). Yes, the Jews are God’s chosen people, and through them came the Jewish Messiah to bless all the nations of the earth. And it is only through Jesus that Jews can find God’s complete atonement and forgiveness.

    While individual Jews must come to Christ for salvation, God is still not finished with Israel as a nation. The Bible tells us that in the end times, Israel will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10). Jeremiah 33:8; Ezekiel 11:17; and Romans 11:26 predict that in the end times Israel will be regenerated, restored, and regathered in their homeland. This regathering took place in 1948 when Israel was recognized as a sovereign country by the United Nations. (Please see our article on Israel’s role in the end times.) Clearly, God is not finished with the Jewish people. http://www.gotquestions.org/Jews-saved.html

    Question: "What is Judaism and what do Jews believe?"

    Answer:
    What is Judaism, and who or what is a Jew? Is Judaism simply a religion? Is it a cultural identity or just an ethnic group? Are Jews a clan of people or are they a nation? What do Jews believe, and do they all believe the same things?

    Dictionary definitions of a “Jew” include “a member of the tribe of Judah,” “an Israelite,” “a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the 6th century B.C. to the 1st century A.D.,” “a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people,” and “one whose religion is Judaism.”

    According to rabbinical Judaism, a Jew is one who has a Jewish mother or one who has formally converted to Judaism. Leviticus 24:10 is often cited to give this belief credibility, although the Torah makes no specific claim in support of this tradition. Some rabbis say that it has nothing to do with what the individual actually believes. These rabbis tell us that a Jew does not need to be a follower of Jewish laws and customs to be considered Jewish. In fact, a Jew can have no belief in God at all and still be Jewish based on the above rabbinical interpretation.

    Other rabbis make it clear that unless the person follows the precepts of the Torah and accepts the “Thirteen Principles of Faith” of Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, one of the greatest medieval Jewish scholars), he cannot be a Jew. Although this person may be a “biological” Jew, he has no real connection to Judaism.

    In the Torah—the first five books of the Bible—Genesis 14:13 teaches that Abram, commonly recognized as the first Jew, was described as a “Hebrew.” The name “Jew” comes from the name of Judah, one of the twelve sons of Jacob and one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Apparently the name “Jew” originally referred only to those who were members of the tribe of Judah, but when the kingdom was divided after the reign of Solomon (1 Kings 12), the term referred to anyone in the kingdom of Judah, which included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Today, many believe that a Jew is anyone who is a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, regardless of which of the original twelve tribes he descends from.

    So, what is it that Jews believe, and what are the basic precepts of Judaism? There are five main forms or sects of Judaism in the world today. They are Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, Reconstructionist, and Humanistic. The beliefs and requirements in each group differ dramatically; however, a short list of the traditional beliefs of Judaism would include the following:

    God is the creator of all that exists; He is one, incorporeal (without a body), and He alone is to be worshipped as absolute ruler of the universe.

    The first five books of the Hebrew Bible were revealed to Moses by God. They will not be changed or augmented in the future.

    God has communicated to the Jewish people through prophets.

    God monitors the activities of humans; He rewards individuals for good deeds and punishes evil.

    Although Christians base much of their faith on the same Hebrew Scriptures as Jews do, there are major differences in belief: Jews generally consider actions and behavior to be of primary importance; beliefs come out of actions. This conflicts with conservative Christians for whom belief is of primary importance and actions are a result of that belief.

    Jewish belief does not accept the Christian concept of original sin (the belief that all people have inherited Adam and Eve's sin when they disobeyed God's instructions in the Garden of Eden).

    Judaism affirms the inherent goodness of the world and its people as creations of God.

    Jewish believers are able to sanctify their lives and draw closer to God by fulfilling mitzvoth (divine commandments).

    No savior is needed or is available as an intermediary.

    The 613 commandments found in Leviticus and other books regulate all aspects of Jewish life. The Ten Commandments, as delineated in Exodus 20:1-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21; form a brief synopsis of the Law.

    The Messiah (anointed one of God) will arrive in the future and gather Jews once more into the land of Israel. There will be a general resurrection of the dead at that time. The Jerusalem Temple, destroyed in A.D. 70 by the Romans, will be rebuilt.

    Beliefs about Jesus vary considerably. Some view Him as a great moral teacher. Others see Him as a false prophet or as an idol of Christianity. Some sects of Judaism will not even say His name due to the prohibition against saying an idol's name.

    The Jews are often referred to as God's chosen people. This does not mean that they are in any way to be considered superior to other groups. Bible verses such as Exodus 19:5 simply state that God has selected Israel to receive and study the Torah, to worship God only, to rest on the Sabbath, and to celebrate the festivals. Jews were not chosen to be better than others; they were simply selected to be a light to the Gentiles and to be a blessing to all the nations. http://www.gotquestions.org/Judaism.html

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by my2babysmama View Post
    I have been studying 1 John and I came to this passage: "Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also." 1 John 2:22-23. I read this to mean that anyone who denies Christ (His deity?) is not saved. I grew up in a "Christian" home, went to church, Sunday School, Christian school, made the decision to trust Christ when I was 13. My dad taught me the fundamentals of Christian doctrine. Now, my dad is involved in the Hebrew Roots cult, and he denies that Jesus is God. He says that Jesus is Messiah, but just a special man that God used to save mankind. He denies the doctrine of the Trinity, believes that the "word of God" is infallible but that the Bible is not, does not accept any of the letters of Paul, and has even doubted my salvation because I do not believe the way he does.
    In verse 19, John says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." Could this mean that my dad has never been saved? This tears my heart. Instead of my entire family being saved as I have always thought, now it's just my mom and I, and my mom is following a lot of the Emergent teachings. And if my dad is not saved, how do I present salvation to him? He already has all the head knowledge of the Bible. He believes he is saved. Any insights would be helpful.
    I always wondered about whether or not a Catholic or an emergent can be saved. To me, The Gospel is: Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, he was buried, and rose from the dead on the third day.

    I know Catholics who say they believe in the gospel as defined in the statement in 1st Cor.15:3-4.
    I would like to think that even if they believe a lot of other Catholic dogma in their ignorance God will still save them for believing the gospel.

    I have a B-I-L, who is oneness pentacostal. He is very devout about his beliefs and is in the same boat. I don't know what to think about them being saved or not.

    But I do know that I could get pretty frank and say pretty much what I wanted to them, they couldn't disown me and some of what I told them I know it stuck. I guess we can only do what we can do. God has his own timing.

    The HR is lawkeeping, righteousness by works. Keep hammering at him with salvation by grace without works.

    God Bless!

  7. #7
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    If Jesus is not who He says He is... Then He is a liar. Is He not?

    How can one believe half truths on this?

    My sister said, "He was just a good man, good teacher".

    I asked her, "would a good man, good teacher, lie"?

    As of yet, she has not answered...

    But to be sure, He is one or the other. He cannot be both.
    I accept nothing from man as truth...
    only that, One is the truth. (John 14-6)

    Pre-Flood/Pre-Trib (Genesis 5-24)

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by my2babysmama View Post
    I have been studying 1 John and I came to this passage: "Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also." 1 John 2:22-23. I read this to mean that anyone who denies Christ (His deity?) is not saved.
    I've always viewed these types of scriptures as dealing with the problem at hand, namely that in that day, you had Jesus Christ, and Judaism. The Jews in that day had a very stark choice. They were either "all in" for Christ, or they stuck with the law of Moses and the Temple. You see this in Pauls letters, how Paul explained there is no half-way, no mixing of the law and grace, its oil and water. If they placed their faith in Christ, it meant a lot of things would happen. They would be hated, persecuted, and cut off from their people in many cases. Not a light or easy decision. Christ made it clear that if they did not believe He was who He said He was, not only would they perish without a Savior, they would not have the Father either. No Son, no Father. So it does not read "precisely" how you took the meaning, think more back in that day, think more you were raised a Jew and had this decision thrust upon you.

    I agree with others, its a tough thing to think about, is my own father saved? I certainly can't answer that. I would want to hear him explain exactly why he thinks he is saved. The Jews had no doubts who Christ claimed to be, they desired to shut Him up and kill Him for what He was telling them, and they eventually succeeded. And they were correct, only God Himself can forgive sins. I would concede that some today are really confused, and are ignorant of scripture. If he, being a Gentile, and his claim is to come alongside orthodox Jews and their beliefs, then he has a problem similar to the Jews of Christs day, allegiance to the law of Moses, or to the one who brought them a new covenant, brought by God Himself, they must choose, he must choose. The only grace we have today is Christ, men died without mercy under the law, and that is true today. If they choose the law, they will die by the law.
    Don't panic! Just be Rapture Ready.

    Joel 3:2

    I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodzeee View Post
    I'm not up to speed on the Hebrew Roots religion, but if they believe Jesus was the Messiah, then wouldn't that in effect make Him God?
    No. One of Judaism's apologetics against Jesus is that they say they do not expect a divine Messiah but he will simply be a mortal political leader. Remember even in Jesus's day when Jesus claimed to be the same as God they charged blasphemy. They cannot see the Triunity of God yet, so that a man could be the Second Person of the Trinity, a God/man Who took on Himself the sins of the world is something totally unbelievable.

    What many of the HR cults think is that Jesus was just a mortal man and not *Messiah* in the way we know Him to be.

    With cults it's imperative to carefully define what each word means because cults redefine words with their errant definitions; they can read the same Bible and come up with very twisted meanings.
    "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


    Jesus + something = nothing

    Jesus + nothing = Everything

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