Scriptural response to 'only a very few are chosen' themed messages

[$teve]

It's funny what little valuable bits of scripture we can overlook even though we read those verses over and over for many years - as I often discover.

Today I was just searching some verses to make a couple of comments about God's grace where several words from the following passage of scripture almost leapt out of the screen at me.

As I read them, and without even thinking about it, it suddenly dawned upon me what measure of God's gift and grace is extended toward the world through faith in Jesus - by contrast to teachers of doctrines who cite a couple of verses to contend that very few, indeed only a minority chosen few, evidenced by their almost flawless religous conduct and behaviour, will barely scrape into heaven.

Sin and Death Through Adam; Righteous and Life Through Christ

12Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15So also is the free gift not like the offense. For if through the offense of one many are dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded unto many.

16So is the gift not like it was by one that sinned: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.

17For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin has reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

This prompted me to search a couple of other supportive verses which I cite below for further reading and contemplation.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 1: 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

[Wishing4]

And I can hardly wait to see how many! My daughter and I were on a walk today and she was naming the people we will see in heaven. I'm thankful we know quite a few. It's funny, but she always starts with the mailman.

I just finished reading those same verses today as I'm making my way through Romans. (I have verse 19 underlined) I've gotten many wow and ah ha moments while reading and reading this book. Many verses have leapt out at me, too. One of my favorites: "Through Him we have also obtained access by faith unto this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (5:2 ESV)

[HeIsEnough]

As I read them, and without even thinking about it, it suddenly dawned upon me what measure of God's gift and grace is extended toward the world through faith in Jesus - by contrast to teachers of doctrines who cite a couple of verses to contend that very few, indeed only a minority chosen few, evidenced by their almost flawless religous conduct and behaviour, will barely scrape into heaven.

Ah man, it just seems impossible for some to have a balance, Steve. We have less of a clue than what those back in Christs day knew about God's grace, it is astounding beyond words. Sometimes when talking to people who are, umm, really headstrong in that way, you just want to 'get real' with them. sort of like asking them to consider the grace they've found, to recall that first time they realized just how wretched they really are, and just how strong the Lord stands there, immovable by us and our ways, still reaching down from heaven for man.

Yes, that grace they've found and should be a million times more grateful for, is extended to the very same people they think are unworthy and unsavable, even in the boldly wretched position we see them in. Imagine that, the Lord actually, literally, for reals, cares as much about them as He does for you. And if He cares for you like that, your warts and all, then who is this God that we serve? He is matchless, full of lovingkindness and goodness. I can very often talk of Him a whole lot, but talking about His grace in the face of my failures, leaves me speechless.

I am just very thankful that God is God, and He is not persuaded by man. A few would have liked to shut the door on the kingdom for me, but God. He doesn't listen to them either.

[Any Minute]

So true $teve, how it's often overlooked (purposefuly ?) that God neither desires nor created anyone to perish. Way too much scripture pointing to the exact opposite.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

Now of course some will perish (eternaly) but not because that is God's will and purpose for them, as some teach.
I'm glad you brought this up as I've been looking into this very same issue myself lately. I'm learning to stay away from those teachers, no matter how correct they may be on other topics. If they can't get the 'who' of 'whosoever' right, the rest of it is kind of pointless.

[son of dust]

So true $teve, how it's often overlooked (purposefuly ?) that God neither desires nor created anyone to perish. Way too much scripture pointing to the exact opposite.

I have also wondered whether exclusionists ("I'm going to heaven and you're not") are purpose driven, so to speak. The underlying root of this attitude is pride, which, like the love of money, is a root of all kinds of evil.

[SaintTexas]

What an edifying post.

Thank you for sharing.

I read my Bible one book after another, and that is how we study at our church. When you don't do this, you really have no idea what your Bible says and you do not know the Lord very well at all!

It's also wonderful that the Lord made the Gospel so simple since so many who are persecuted and lose their lives and have possibly little to no access to Bibles can come to a saving faith but may never mature in Scriptural knowlege. Then again, someone who believes and then is killed for the faith in Jesus soon after might be the most spiritually mature of any of us if you really think about it.

Ever look around your house at all the Bibles you have and then the ridiculous access we have to God's Word and feel overwhelmingly blessed and ashamed that we are not doing more for those who don't? I do. Lord, please help me to pray for those who are persecuted for Your Name and help me to be a blessing to them by being more involved in ministries whose goal is to get Your Word in their hands.

[IMSAVED]

Yes,many will make it but many will lose rewards.Someone once told me "I would rather clean toilets in Heaven than be a King in Hell".

Revelation 22:12
"Behold,I am coming soon!My reward is with me,and I will give to everyone according to what he has done"

This can be good or bad according to how you lived your life on Earth.

[$teve]

I'm pleased to read people feel blessed and edified by this post. Just want to be clear that I don't mean to sound as though I despise people given to such doctrines, but having been the victim of such teaching in the past, I honestly despise the doctrine, unashamedly. No wonder Paul went to such effort to preserve the integrity of the gospel and outright condemned anyone who would preach a false gospel as we read in the book of Galatians. Also, I don't condemn these people at all. They, like us, are saved by the same grace of God through faith in Jesus. Just they hold to a false teaching where they need growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus (2 Peter 3:18). One key word there - 'grace'. I understand from personal experience that a lot of it is self-righteousness and hence the judgmentalism and frustration exhibited toward other brethren. Seriously it is an awful place to be in, and these people need to be set free from such false teaching that binds and frustrates the love, faith and hope we have in Jesus alone. To come to know the truth: 'And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you FREE!' (John 8:32).

[Steve53]

... but having been the victim of such teaching in the past, I honestly despise the doctrine, unashamedly....

Kind of makes you wonder just exactly what part of "whosoever" excludes anyone.

[OKC03Cobra]

Kind of makes you wonder just exactly what part of "whosoever" excludes anyone.

What is your opinion of this article:

http://www.raptureready.com/featured...illips112.html

[Steve53]

What is your opinion of this article:

http://www.raptureready.com/featured...illips112.html

As a whole or some specific comment(s) within the article?

(I'm sensing here that you've perhaps misunderstood the intended point of my previous post in this thread?)

[$teve]

What is your opinion of this article:

http://www.raptureready.com/featured...illips112.html

My opinion is that it is a very poorly written and explained article. It is ambiguous and opaque on some very important faith and salvation issues.

For the most part I think it was fine up until the following.

Jesus does not save souls that afterwards produce bad fruit or no fruit at all. If you are producing bad fruit or no fruit, you are a corrupt tree, and will be cast into the fire. Unfortunately, untold numbers of people think “lip service” is okay. Am I saying that we must work to obtain salvation? Of course not, and neither was Jesus, but if we are the branch and He is the Vine, we will produce good works, because He (the Vine) does the producing through us.

Jesus said that He knows His own.

“27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”(John 10:27-28)

Otherwise, there are those haunting damning words again, “I never knew you.”

Friends if you don’t have a love in your heart for Jesus and a longing to know Him and serve Him, you are not one of His own. He does not know you. Don’t kid yourself. Don’t play Russian roulette with your soul. You only have one chance to get it right, that “one chance” being this life you are now living. Once this life is over, there is no turning back. There is no second chance. Ask Him today to save you and He will. You then will not hear those gut wrenching words, “I never knew you.”

The reason why I think it was good up to that point is that the article points out that there are many professing Christians who are not Christian, of born again faith. But what I find problematic is that it draws the distinction between those who are saved or not by the presence or absence of bad fruit in one's life.

My question is, where on the arbitrary line of bad fruit --> good fruit is one saved?

Now while the author denies that salvation is by works, he fails to explain how one is saved where the presence or absence of good fruit is observed. This needs explanation and clarification.

Ask Him today to save you and He will. You then will not hear those gut wrenching words, “I never knew you.”

That's good, but the premise of the article is that one's salvation is contingent upon the absence of bad fruit and the presence of good fruit, or anywhere in between, which the article doesn't specify.

[OKC03Cobra]

My opinion is that it is a very poorly written and explained article. It is ambiguous and opaque on some very important faith and salvation issues.

For the most part I think it was fine up until the following.



The reason why I think it was good up to that point is that the article points out that there are many professing Christians who are not Christian, of born again faith. But what I find problematic is that it draws the distinction between those who are saved or not by the presence or absence of bad fruit in one's life.

My question is, where on the arbitrary line of bad fruit --> good fruit is one saved?

Now while the author denies that salvation is by works, he fails to explain how one is saved where the presence or absence of good fruit is observed. This needs explanation and clarification.



That's good, but the premise of the article is that one's salvation is contingent upon the absence of bad fruit and the presence of good fruit, or anywhere in between, which the article doesn't specify.

Thank you. I had the same concerns after reading the article. I have read articles by other authors that say when you are saved that the Holy Spirit begins a sanctification process within you that causes you to produce good fruit. And if you do not produce good fruit then you were not sanctified and therefore not saved. I find this premise rather troubling.

[HeIsEnough]

Thank you. I had the same concerns after reading the article. I have read articles by other authors that say when you are saved that the Holy Spirit begins a sanctification process within you that causes you to produce good fruit. And if you do not produce good fruit then you were not sanctified and therefore not saved. I find this premise rather troubling.

I think the premise is sound, the words and meanings need defined. Good fruit, is the fruit of the Spirit, it will be there when the Spirit is there, it is always good. The fruit of the Spirit is different, most people think of 'works', when its really a new spirit, born from above, as we are told we must be born again. It is incorruptible, those truths of Christ a believer holds dear never change, they are our hope, our promise to be fulfilled. Every believer testifies to these things I believe, else they are not His. Some walk more in the flesh, but that does not mean the new spirit is not there. We testify to Christ with our heart, which is what tells us He is with someone, if indeed they tell the truth.

[$teve]

Yeah I don't want to appear that I reject the article, but I certainly think generous clarification is required. There was a good article posted somewhere about some of the problems with identifying true and false believers by their 'fruit' alone, clearly one being the subjectivity of the observer.

As an example of identifying a true believer by their actions or behavior, I cite from personal encounter (can't remember if I was speaking to this person directly as it was some years ago), a lady who routinely attended church and served coffee and tea from the canisters at the rear of the church at the end of each service. The lady admitted she enjoyed church for the social benefits but didn't believe in the Christian faith that we held. On the surface she seemed to exhibit the 'fruit' of regular church attendance and service, yet wasn't a believer.