Romans 9 question

[so-blessed]

Romans 9:21-23
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, & another to dishonour? 22: What if God, willing to shew His wrath, & to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels fitted to destruction: 23: & that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He has had afore prepared unto glory.


I was reading through another thread & this came up briefly, Because it was off topic slightly, not much was mentioned. So I was reading through & I can see that this scripture refers to Israel, but I (& probably lots here) have heard this scripture , used to refer to gentiles as well & that God has created some people for hell.
Can you help me understand why this scripture is only talking to the Jews (if it is!) & why they are the clay? What exactly is being said here? Thank you.

[Wally]

Key little piece:

What if.......

Paul is sharing an idea, a possibility within God's sovreignty. Remember the book is Romans, this is to the church - jew and gentile.



Romans 9:14-24

New King James Version (NKJV) Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[a] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[b] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Man is fashoned from dust - clay. It is what our flesh consists of.

For those of us who believe, who humble ourselves and see ourselves in the light of His truth - lost sinners, we have the gift of seeing God's mercy not only extended to ourselves but to all mankind.

To those who would blame God for creating them sinners - there is no excuse. Paul stated that fact at the beginning of Romans. We all know God, we have conscience.
We choose evil, and it is the continued choice of unbelief that is pre-destined to eternal flames.

It may be that God created and allowed corruption so that those who would embrace the Truth - Jesus, could see His love for us - even towards those who would reject Christ.
Although we do not know all the details of what God has created, the Bible clearly says the accountibility is man's.

[so-blessed]

Thank you, got it!!
It's just that as I said, i read on another thread that the clay was Israel, & got a bit confused!

[Wally]

Paul does talk about the rejection of Messiah by Israel, and the acceptance and faith of the gentiles provoking them to jealousy.

Romans is real meat. I find a new morsel each time I read it.

[HeIsEnough]

Romans 9:21-23
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, & another to dishonour? 22: What if God, willing to shew His wrath, & to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels fitted to destruction: 23: & that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He has had afore prepared unto glory.


I was reading through another thread & this came up briefly, Because it was off topic slightly, not much was mentioned. So I was reading through & I can see that this scripture refers to Israel, but I (& probably lots here) have heard this scripture , used to refer to gentiles as well & that God has created some people for hell.
Can you help me understand why this scripture is only talking to the Jews (if it is!) & why they are the clay? What exactly is being said here? Thank you.

It is said in the context of this:

Romans 9
1. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, ² That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
³ For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
⁴ Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
⁵ Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Paul is heartbroken over the current condition of Israel, in refusal to Jesus Christ.

Paul is laying out an objection of the Jews by birth, has God cast them aside?
He then lays out why the present things are as they are. (imagine if you were an Israelite in ~60 AD)

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: ⁷ Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
⁸ That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
⁹ For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
¹⁰ And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
¹¹ (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
¹² It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
¹³ As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Then the Israelite might ask

¹⁴ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?...

To which he replies.

...God forbid.¹⁵ For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
¹⁶ So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
¹⁷ For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
¹⁸ Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

It just so happens that the mercy the God showed, is the Lord Jesus Christ. "He hath mercy" on those who trust in Him. So, if these men of Judea refuse Christ, they can be hardened further, just like Pharaoh.

He adds another objection.

¹⁹ Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

To which he replies:

²⁰ Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
²¹ Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
²² What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
²³ And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
²⁴ Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
²⁵ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
²⁶ And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
²⁷ Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
²⁸ For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
²⁹ And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
³⁰ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
³¹ But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
³² Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
³³ As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So then, the Lord Jesus Christ is sent, and those who believe shall never be put to shame.

The highlighted text, the most important of all to me, is understood by me to mean:

"the riches of His glory" that being Jesus Christ

"vessels of mercy", those who receive Him, receive mercy

"afore prepared unto glory", All prepared beforehand, planned by the Lord, that Jesus Christ would come to this earth and redeem those who come to Him, "The Plan."

It has a lot of context of Israel, but the Gentiles are included in the last part, explaining how we receive righteousness apart from law, that being the righteousness of Christ. This was designed for all Israel to do what me and you have done, receive the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who refused did not mix their belief with faith, faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ. I don't know if that answers your question, Wally also addressed good points.

[Hootmon]

Great post, James!

"vessels of mercy", those who receive Him, receive mercy

They are filled with it.

Our cup runneth over.

[so-blessed]

Thank you everything answered