The resurrection of Jesus Christ

[Snoopynstorm]

I need to know somethings.

1. Why was in necassary for Jesus to rise in His body, why couldn't He have risen as a spirit?

2.What would have happened if His body didn't rise and only His spirit did?

3.How can it be proven that God didn't just destroy the body?

4. How can we be sure 1 Cor. 15:14 isn't referring to His spirit being risen?

5. In 1 Peter:3:18, how can that be refuted?

I know He rose physically and not as a "spirit creature". I just need to ask because of the whole Jehovah's Witness thing. It helps by asking questions to those who have Jesus.

[iSong6:3]

God made man to be a physical being as well as incorporeal.

Jesus was resurrected as the firstfruits, to show that we will also be resurrected.

If Jesus had not been resurrected it would have made God a liar.

We know that hundreds saw Jesus in His resurrected body. He ate with His disciples. You can read about that here: Luke 24:33-43.

Thomas said he would not believe it until he could put his hands on Jesus's scars, which he did. We cannot touch Jesus's scars now but He says blessed are they who have not seen and yet believe. Read: John 20:24-29.

[pixelpusher]

Psalms 16:10 said He would not see decay.

If someone wants to say 1 Peter 3:18 means Jesus was not bodily resurrected, Luke 24:39 refutes that.

[OnceWasLost]

Answers in red.

I need to know somethings.

1. Why was in necassary for Jesus to rise in His body, why couldn't He have risen as a spirit?

If He promised to raise us up, He himself did so to make the promise sure. Colossians 2 and 3

2.What would have happened if His body didn't rise and only His spirit did?

1 Corinthians 15:12-19 Not to mention Jesus said it would be His physical body Matthew 27:40 for one example.

3.How can it be proven that God didn't just destroy the body?

Because He said He didn't but preserved it. Look at all the resurrection passages in the Gospels. Mary, Peter, John, James and numerous others saw Him.

4. How can we be sure 1 Cor. 15:14 isn't referring to His spirit being risen?

Again He appeared to answer that very same question asked by Thomas. John 20:24-29

5. In 1 Peter:3:18, how can that be refuted?

Look closer, in fact this passage is problematic to JW's as Peter shows that the Holy Spirit was involved with Jesus's resurrection. That passage does not say Jesus rose as a spirit.

[Hootmon]

All resurrections are physical. Its what the word literally means; to 'stand up again'.

Once you understand that the JW's points become a bit silly.

[Snoopynstorm]

Answers in red.

Friend on answer 5, they worded their bible to say "in the spirit." The translation is fit to match their doctrines,that's the problem. That's why they can say Jesus rose as a "spirit creature".

Alot of translations say "by"

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:

http://bible.cc/1_peter/3-18.htm

The wording makes it harder to understand and therefore it helps their false doctrine.

Hootman:That's a good point.

[OnceWasLost]

Friend on answer 5, they worded their bible to say "in the spirit." The translation is fit to match their doctrines,that's the problem. That's why they can say Jesus rose as a "spirit creature".

Alot of translations say "by"

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:

http://bible.cc/1_peter/3-18.htm

The wording makes it harder to understand and therefore it helps their false doctrine.

Hootman:That's a good point.

The Peter passage has to be seen through the Gospel passages where Jesus appeared in Physical form, where Peter just so happened to have been. So is Peter contradicting his own eyewitness or are those insisting on a non physical resurrection just being willfully ignorant of all the other Scripture showing it was physical?

[Verisimilitude]

I'm confused as to what a spiritual resurrection is. Does that mean the spirit is trapped in a deceased body until it is resurrected? It's just a concept that makes no sense.

Luke 21:41-43 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
And he took it, and did eat before them.

Spirits have no physical hands to carry the food to their mouths. They have no physical mouths to chew with. They have no physical stomachs to digest food. In short, spirits are incapable of eating. By eating, Jesus proved to His disciples that He was flesh and blood, and not a spirit. The facts of His being able to be touched by Thomas as well as His being able to eat prove His body was not destroyed.

http://carm.org/jesus-resurrection-was-physical

This link goes more into the physical resurrection of our Savior. Hopefully it'll help with the insight you need to deal with the JW's.

Over the years, I've gotten this out of the Holy Scriptures. God created everything to be eternal. God created man in His own image as well. Therefore, God created us, in His image, to be eternal. We are created as physical beings, not spiritual beings. Sin is what brought death and decay into the world. This is NOT by the will of God, it is by the iniquity of mankind. Upon the death of the physical body, the spirit does not remain in the body as is evidenced by reading the story of Lazarus in Luke 16 and 1 Samuel 28:14. The spirit needs no resurrection. The death and decay of God's image pleases Satan, not God. Satan and the demons hate God, His image and His creation. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross overcame death. One day death will no longer exist!! Jesus is first born from the dead, physically, to confound the hatred Satan has for God and His image. To allow His image to remain in a decayed state is to allow Satan the victory. To resurrect His image affirms the limitless power of the Living God, and makes Satan the loser.

Satan will lose, the history of his defeat was written millenia ago. All things will be restored because it is the will of God that it be so.

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Spiritual resurrection, whatever that is, can never fulfill the requirement for the restitution of all things. The bodies of the dead must be restored as well, else all things will not have been restored and God will be a liar. He is not a liar and all things shall be restored!

[Buzzardhut]

Friend on answer 5, they worded their bible to say "in the spirit." The translation is fit to match their doctrines,that's the problem. That's why they can say Jesus rose as a "spirit creature".

Alot of translations say "by"

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:

http://bible.cc/1_peter/3-18.htm

The wording makes it harder to understand and therefore it helps their false doctrine.

Jesus' body was resurrected by the power of the Holy Spirit.

[Snoopynstorm]

I'm confused as to what a spiritual resurrection is. Does that mean the spirit is trapped in a deceased body until it is resurrected? It's just a concept that makes no sense.

Luke 21:41-43 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
And he took it, and did eat before them.

Spirits have no physical hands to carry the food to their mouths. They have no physical mouths to chew with. They have no physical stomachs to digest food. In short, spirits are incapable of eating. By eating, Jesus proved to His disciples that He was flesh and blood, and not a spirit. The facts of His being able to be touched by Thomas as well as His being able to eat prove His body was not destroyed.

http://carm.org/jesus-resurrection-was-physical

This link goes more into the physical resurrection of our Savior. Hopefully it'll help with the insight you need to deal with the JW's.

Over the years, I've gotten this out of the Holy Scriptures. God created everything to be eternal. God created man in His own image as well. Therefore, God created us, in His image, to be eternal. We are created as physical beings, not spiritual beings. Sin is what brought death and decay into the world. This is NOT by the will of God, it is by the iniquity of mankind. Upon the death of the physical body, the spirit does not remain in the body as is evidenced by reading the story of Lazarus in Luke 16 and 1 Samuel 28:14. The spirit needs no resurrection. The death and decay of God's image pleases Satan, not God. Satan and the demons hate God, His image and His creation. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross overcame death. One day death will no longer exist!! Jesus is first born from the dead, physically, to confound the hatred Satan has for God and His image. To allow His image to remain in a decayed state is to allow Satan the victory. To resurrect His image affirms the limitless power of the Living God, and makes Satan the loser.

Satan will lose, the history of his defeat was written millenia ago. All things will be restored because it is the will of God that it be so.

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Spiritual resurrection, whatever that is, can never fulfill the requirement for the restitution of all things. The bodies of the dead must be restored as well, else all things will not have been restored and God will be a liar. He is not a liar and all things shall be restored!

Friend, I don't get it ether. They say there's no such thing as an immortal soul. They claim there's nothing called a "spirit" that exists after death. They have other deffintions. The soul is the personality and the spirit is their "life force". I don't get it. I just don't get it. If there's no such thing as an immortal soul/spirit than how'd Jesus resurrect spiritually?

The sad thing is they say Jesus (a.k.a Michael in their book) took on different bodies to show the diciples. He got rid of the body he was using at the time before he got to heaven (when Jesus asended into Heaven). That's sadly what they believe. It is head spinning I tell you. That's there explination for when Jesus ate the fish and honeycomb. They've twisted the verses (when Thomas touched Jesus and He said He was flesh and bone) and when Jesus said in John how in three days He'd rise from the dead in His body. It just gets twisted! It's so sad when Jesus said so Himself about the physical resurrection. Mainly that one verse (that was changed in their NWT) gets twisted to support the false doctrine.

The Peter passage has to be seen through the Gospel passages where Jesus appeared in Physical form, where Peter just so happened to have been. So is Peter contradicting his own eyewitness or are those insisting on a non physical resurrection just being willfully ignorant of all the other Scripture showing it was physical?

Willfully ignorant and blinded by the enemy.

Jesus' body was resurrected by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I know the Holy Spirit rose Him from the dead. They just changed it from "by" to "in" though. Making the people believe in a lie because the NWT was changed to fit false beliefs. Infact by the power of the Holy Spirit proves He's God! But, of course they just say He's an active force. That verse shows nothing of a spiritual resurrection and proves the deity of the Holy Spirit. Of course, if their translation was honest they'd have to admit to the truth on both of those subjects (on the Holy Spirit and the resurrection.)

[james46888]

Friend, I don't get it ether. They say there's no such thing as an immortal soul. They claim there's nothing called a "spirit" that exists after death. They have other deffintions. The soul is the personality and the spirit is their "life force". I don't get it. I just don't get it. If there's no such thing as an immortal soul/spirit than how'd Jesus resurrect spiritually? .)

Yes, the JW's have very odd beliefs. They don't believe man has a spirit inside of him though they do believe spirits exist, such as angels. So they believe Jesus is a spirit in the same sense as angels are (as you note later on when you correctly say they equate Him with Michael, the archangel. Yes the idea of a spiritual resurrection makes no sense since resurrection in the ancient world always refers to the body getting raised up as opposed to being replaced by a "spirit body" (whatever that is)

The sad thing is they say Jesus (a.k.a Michael in their book) took on different bodies to show the diciples. He got rid of the body he was using at the time before he got to heaven (when Jesus asended into Heaven). That's sadly what they believe. It is head spinning I tell you. That's there explination for when Jesus ate the fish and honeycomb. They've twisted the verses (when Thomas touched Jesus and He said He was flesh and bone) and when Jesus said in John how in three days He'd rise from the dead in His body. It just gets twisted! It's so sad when Jesus said so Himself about the physical resurrection. Mainly that one verse (that was changed in their NWT) gets twisted to support the false doctrine.

Yeah, the John 2 passage about raising up the temple (body) in three days is a real prob for them. I've had great fun seeing them try to wriggle out of that one when I've witnessed to them. And, yes, they basically have to accuse Jesus of lying when He said He was "flesh and bone."

[Snoopynstorm]

Yes, the JW's have very odd beliefs. They don't believe man has a spirit inside of him though they do believe spirits exist, such as angels. So they believe Jesus is a spirit in the same sense as angels are (as you note later on when you correctly say they equate Him with Michael, the archangel. Yes the idea of a spiritual resurrection makes no sense since resurrection in the ancient world always refers to the body getting raised up as opposed to being replaced by a "spirit body" (whatever that is)






Yeah, the John 2 passage about raising up the temple (body) in three days is a real prob for them. I've had great fun seeing them try to wriggle out of that one when I've witnessed to them. And, yes, they basically have to accuse Jesus of lying when He said He was "flesh and bone."

Wait a minute. How would I find out more about what the people back in earier time believed about the resurrection? They may think if the internet says it than it's a lie by Satan. Historical evidence would be awesome! Sadly, the are taught to only trust things from the JW's. The barrier is that their only allowed to listen to things from the WT Society and anything else is from Satan. I'd absolutly love to get ahold of a Kingdom Interliner Translation. It's from the WT Society but it's their biggest mistake (put it this way it's so good they stopped printing it). They have greek written along side their translation or whatever. I've heard it's brought alot of JW's out of the organzation. There's certain problems with getting it. One is if you search for one online people want alot of money for one of them and I don't even have a job right now.

Friend, you know what those are great scriptures about the physical resurrection. You're right though. They try to wriggle out of it. :sighs: Hopefully, the Holy Spirit will convict atleast anther JW with those verses before the rapture.

I have another question (better than making a new discussion). What do I say when they say Jesus can't have a body because "flesh and blood can not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven"?

[carol1948]

Resurrection is always of the body. The spirit/soul never dies. I've led my JW sister through the scriptures and showed her even in specific scripture in Ecclesiastes she used the obvious error of her belief, but... still she clings to that deception.

Jesus was resurrected bodily so we too could be resurrected bodily when it comes our turn. He is the 'first fruits' of the harvest, the sample of what is coming. The Word of God requires two eye witnesses to confirm a matter, yet in this there were hundreds with over 500 at one time. God did not intend for us to miss this or to be duped by false doctrine and other doubters. I cannot understand how the JWs believe Jesus wasn't resurrected bodily, but that they will be. But then I know they are in the dark and really can't see. I pray for them often, and not just my family, but for all those trapped in that darkness.

[james46888]

Wait a minute. How would I find out more about what the people back in earier time believed about the resurrection? They may think if the internet says it than it's a lie by Satan. Historical evidence would be awesome! Sadly, the are taught to only trust things from the JW's. The barrier is that their only allowed to listen to things from the WT Society and anything else is from Satan. I'd absolutly love to get ahold of a Kingdom Interliner Translation. It's from the WT Society but it's their biggest mistake (put it this way it's so good they stopped printing it). They have greek written along side their translation or whatever. I've heard it's brought alot of JW's out of the organzation. There's certain problems with getting it. One is if you search for one online people want alot of money for one of them and I don't even have a job right now.

Regarding what people in early times believed (I assume you're talking about Christians in the first few centuries after Christ's death?) about the resurrection, the early church fathers were very clear that it was physical. Check online for the following passages: The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter III; Fragments of the Lost Work of Justin (Martyr) on the Resurrection, Chapters II & IX; Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter VIII. intro & 1; Chapter IX.1,3; Chapter X.2; Chapter XIII. 2,3,5; Chapter XXXI.2; Chapter XXXIII.1; Athenagoras On the Resurrection of the Dead (25 chapters) ; Tertullian On the Resurrection of the Flesh (63 chapters).

Now, when I witnessed to some JW's a few years back and brought these passages up, all they do is say, "Oh but those quotes don't prove anything since they aren't from the Bible." This is, as you may know, quite disingenuous of them, since in a booklet of their's on the trinity doctrine they cite (actually misquote) from many of the same church fathers to try and prove they didn't believe in the trinity and they comment that it's odd that many of the top early church leaders didn't believe in the doctrine. So, although they'll pretend to be unimpressed by what the church father's believed, their organisation obviously thinks what they believed about the trinity was important!.


Regarding an interlinear, I have got one at home (it's not with me now because I'm living at my grandparents place temporarily) and I got it simply by asking a JW (though I had known them for a few months at that point, so if you asked one straight out for a copy they might say "no").

Friend, you know what those are great scriptures about the physical resurrection. You're right though. They try to wriggle out of it. :sighs: Hopefully, the Holy Spirit will convict atleast anther JW with those verses before the rapture.

Hopefully. I spent two years talking once a week to JW's in my area (I wrote an article about it for tektonics.org a few years back) and they never admitted once to being wrong about any doctrine (though who knows what they really felt inside). They did actually take some literature from me once regarding the trinity and the guy said he'd get back to me. He kept stalling and stalling and never did end up reading what I gave him or attempted to answer it.

I have another question (better than making a new discussion). What do I say when they say Jesus can't have a body because "flesh and blood can not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven"?

Regarding "flesh and blood", see: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/physrez.html

[Snoopynstorm]

Regarding what people in early times believed (I assume you're talking about Christians in the first few centuries after Christ's death?) about the resurrection, the early church fathers were very clear that it was physical. Check online for the following passages: The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter III; Fragments of the Lost Work of Justin (Martyr) on the Resurrection, Chapters II & IX; Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter VIII. intro & 1; Chapter IX.1,3; Chapter X.2; Chapter XIII. 2,3,5; Chapter XXXI.2; Chapter XXXIII.1; Athenagoras On the Resurrection of the Dead (25 chapters) ; Tertullian On the Resurrection of the Flesh (63 chapters).

Now, when I witnessed to some JW's a few years back and brought these passages up, all they do is say, "Oh but those quotes don't prove anything since they aren't from the Bible." This is, as you may know, quite disingenuous of them, since in a booklet of their's on the trinity doctrine they cite (actually misquote) from many of the same church fathers to try and prove they didn't believe in the trinity and they comment that it's odd that many of the top early church leaders didn't believe in the doctrine. So, although they'll pretend to be unimpressed by what the church father's believed, their organisation obviously thinks what they believed about the trinity was important!.


Regarding an interlinear, I have got one at home (it's not with me now because I'm living at my grandparents place temporarily) and I got it simply by asking a JW (though I had known them for a few months at that point, so if you asked one straight out for a copy they might say "no").





Hopefully. I spent two years talking once a week to JW's in my area (I wrote an article about it for tektonics.org a few years back) and they never admitted once to being wrong about any doctrine (though who knows what they really felt inside). They did actually take some literature from me once regarding the trinity and the guy said he'd get back to me. He kept stalling and stalling and never did end up reading what I gave him or attempted to answer it.



Regarding "flesh and blood", see: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/physrez.html

First of all praise the name of Jesus! I knew Christ rose physically but I didn't understand why people have said it's impossible for Him to of been rose spiritually. Now I do. Yesterday, I was talking to someone on another forum about it. It suddenly hit me-bam! The Holy Spirit took the scales off of my eyes.

It's impossible to have a spiritual resurrection. A spirit is immortal therefore it can't die. If it can't die it can't be brought back to life. Something has to be dead inorder to be resurrected. Therefore since spirits are immortal and can't die than it's therefore impossible to resurrect a spirit. And if we go the JW way and say there's no such thing as an immortal soul/spirit;we don't have spirits that are seperate from our bodies. Well, if that's the case than Jesus couldn't have rose as a spirit creature if He never had a spirit to begin with. Something can't rise if it never existed in the first place. They backed up into a corner they can't get out of (unless the possibly twist their doctrine and that will still not go too well). It's like they're in a checkers game, backed in a courner and they just can't win.

Hmm...James do you think it's worth a shot to print out some of those quotes and to show them? I'm nervous though of showing them anything from online...

Let's hope the Holy Spirit convicted him depsite he never read what was given to him.

I think I'm on the verge of getting it.Please pray the Holy Spirit helps me to understand the isue with "flesh and blood" better.

By the way thanks for the link. I liked the cow and the flying guy.

[james46888]

It's impossible to have a spiritual resurrection.

Yeah, as Christian scholar William Lane Craig notes in a book he wrote back in the mid-70s, "I challenge any theologian to explain the difference between an immaterial, intangible, "spritual" body and the immortality of the soul.......Even today, if someone claimed that a man who died and was buried rose from the dead and appeared to his friends, only a theologian would think to ask, 'But was his body still in the grave?'. How much more is true of the Jews of Jesus' day, who were much more physical in their understanding of the resurrection."

And, as E.E. Ellis comments, "It is very unlikely that the earliest Palestinian Christians could conceive of any distinction between resurrection and physical, 'grave-emptying' resurrection. To them an anastasis (resurrection) without an empty grave would have been about as meaningful as a square circle."

Hmm...James do you think it's worth a shot to print out some of those quotes and to show them? I'm nervous though of showing them anything from online....

Yeah, I guess so. Though I'd start with Bible quotes first (you could make it part of a cumulative case) since they will, as I noted before, just say, "Those quotes don't prove anything since the church fathers aren't inspired." The reason I brought it up with them is because they had already given me literature on the trinity which quoted church fathers and tried to give readers the impression the church fathers were important figures whose opinions mattered, That's why I used it against them by citing those same church fathers to show the resurrection was, in their view, physical.


As to quotes off the net, yes, what the JWs will do if backed into a corner on that one is say, "How do I know those quotes are accurate. They probably come from a non-JW apostate website that made them up to make us look foolish." So, in that case, you could google about a bit and find a neutral website that has the quotes. Some non-religious sites keep the writings of the church fathers just for historical purposes. Or, failing that, there is a book that JWs cite in their literature when they quote from the church fathers, so you could maybe get that book (can't remember the name of it off the top of my head but they quote from it in their literature on the trinity) so they can't question its neutrality.

I think I'm on the verge of getting it.Please pray the Holy Spirit helps me to understand the isue with "flesh and blood" better.

Sure

By the way thanks for the link. I liked the cow and the flying guy.

Oh, I guess that's in the video at the top? I haven't watched that yet [my internet credit has almost run out so I better not since it'll drain what's left of the credit in seconds ]. since it's quite a new edition to that article.

[Snoopynstorm]

Yeah, as Christian scholar William Lane Craig notes in a book he wrote back in the mid-70s, "I challenge any theologian to explain the difference between an immaterial, intangible, "spritual" body and the immortality of the soul.......Even today, if someone claimed that a man who died and was buried rose from the dead and appeared to his friends, only a theologian would think to ask, 'But was his body still in the grave?'. How much more is true of the Jews of Jesus' day, who were much more physical in their understanding of the resurrection."

And, as E.E. Ellis comments, "It is very unlikely that the earliest Palestinian Christians could conceive of any distinction between resurrection and physical, 'grave-emptying' resurrection. To them an anastasis (resurrection) without an empty grave would have been about as meaningful as a square circle."





Yeah, I guess so. Though I'd start with Bible quotes first (you could make it part of a cumulative case) since they will, as I noted before, just say, "Those quotes don't prove anything since the church fathers aren't inspired." The reason I brought it up with them is because they had already given me literature on the trinity which quoted church fathers and tried to give readers the impression the church fathers were important figures whose opinions mattered, That's why I used it against them by citing those same church fathers to show the resurrection was, in their view, physical.


As to quotes off the net, yes, what the JWs will do if backed into a corner on that one is say, "How do I know those quotes are accurate. They probably come from a non-JW apostate website that made them up to make us look foolish." So, in that case, you could google about a bit and find a neutral website that has the quotes. Some non-religious sites keep the writings of the church fathers just for historical purposes. Or, failing that, there is a book that JWs cite in their literature when they quote from the church fathers, so you could maybe get that book (can't remember the name of it off the top of my head but they quote from it in their literature on the trinity) so they can't question its neutrality.





Sure




Oh, I guess that's in the video at the top? I haven't watched that yet [my internet credit has almost run out so I better not since it'll drain what's left of the credit in seconds ]. since it's quite a new edition to that article.

Hmm...I'd love to get a watchtower with the JW quoting them. Than if they said anything I could ask "If they aren't inspired than why'd a watchtower quote them?" I just hope they wouldn't twist or turn it around on me.

The problem is they think anything non-JW is of Satan. That's what makes stuff off of the internet so difficult(that and they're told to shun the internet despite some don't listen to that). They're told to only listen to JW stuff.

The early Christians knew Jesus rose physically. Why are things so difficult...Jesus obviously made it clear that His body would rise. He ate and had the markings of the spear and nails....they say the body was destroyed yet Jesus used the body to show the He existed...they're saying, like someone said before the JW are in other words saying He faked the nailprints...that just gets to ya, know what I mean? Saying Jesus lied to prove a point... Saying Jesus tricked them...sadly they're not allowed to think for themselves because "it's of Satan" and "independent thinking could lead to pride". :heavy sigh:

[james46888]

Hmm...I'd love to get a watchtower with the JW quoting them. Than if they said anything I could ask "If they aren't inspired than why'd a watchtower quote them?" I just hope they wouldn't twist or turn it around on me.

The problem is they think anything non-JW is of Satan. That's what makes stuff off of the internet so difficult(that and they're told to shun the internet despite some don't listen to that). They're told to only listen to JW stuff.

One of their pieces of literature which quotes from the church fathers is a booklet called, "Should you believe in the trinity". They purposely misquote the fathers in order to prove they didn't accept the trinity (see: bible.ca/trinity/trinity-JW-SYBTT-Watchtower-BOOKLET-Should-You-Believe-the-Trinity-EXPOSED-REFUTED-pagan-section.htm; tektonics.org/guest/watchtrin/htm). When I was in a study with the JWs the trinity issue came up and they offered the booklet to me, which was relief since I'd been mulling over how to ask them about the booklet without giving away the fact that I already knew it was full of lies.

Yeah, you're right about the "anything non-JW is of Satan" thinking and their fear of the net. In my weekly "studies" with them I used to keep my laptop handy and simply put it right in front of them and they had no choice but to look at it . If you ask them to look at a site in their spare time they generally will say "yes" but they then make excuses for not getting around to it and, ultimately, they never read it.

The early Christians knew Jesus rose physically. Why are things so difficult...Jesus obviously made it clear that His body would rise. He ate and had the markings of the spear and nails....they say the body was destroyed yet Jesus used the body to show the He existed...they're saying, like someone said before the JW are in other words saying He faked the nailprints...that just gets to ya, know what I mean? Saying Jesus lied to prove a point... Saying Jesus tricked them...sadly they're not allowed to think for themselves because "it's of Satan" and "independent thinking could lead to pride". :heavy sigh:

Yes, they're basically brainwashed and even though we Christians have superior arguments it's very difficult to dislodge them from the "watchtower is God's organisation and is therefore always right" thinking. We can only try though and hope that there may be individuals in the organisation who are interested in truth. My studies with the JWs were quite a frustrating experience and many times I wondered if all the work I put in was worth it.

Oh, BTW, on the "flesh and blood" issue in 1 Corinth 15, see: reasonablefaith.org/jesus-body

[Snoopynstorm]

One of their pieces of literature which quotes from the church fathers is a booklet called, "Should you believe in the trinity". They purposely misquote the fathers in order to prove they didn't accept the trinity (see: bible.ca/trinity/trinity-JW-SYBTT-Watchtower-BOOKLET-Should-You-Believe-the-Trinity-EXPOSED-REFUTED-pagan-section.htm; tektonics.org/guest/watchtrin/htm). When I was in a study with the JWs the trinity issue came up and they offered the booklet to me, which was relief since I'd been mulling over how to ask them about the booklet without giving away the fact that I already knew it was full of lies.

Yeah, you're right about the "anything non-JW is of Satan" thinking and their fear of the net. In my weekly "studies" with them I used to keep my laptop handy and simply put it right in front of them and they had no choice but to look at it . If you ask them to look at a site in their spare time they generally will say "yes" but they then make excuses for not getting around to it and, ultimately, they never read it.






Yes, they're basically brainwashed and even though we Christians have superior arguments it's very difficult to dislodge them from the "watchtower is God's organisation and is therefore always right" thinking. We can only try though and hope that there may be individuals in the organisation who are interested in truth. My studies with the JWs were quite a frustrating experience and many times I wondered if all the work I put in was worth it.

Oh, BTW, on the "flesh and blood" issue in 1 Corinth 15, see: reasonablefaith.org/jesus-body

Thank you friend. Why'd didn't I hold onto that ? That was a long time ago....Do you think it's risky if I told them I found something on their JW site and printed it out to show them that had to do with the fathers and than show them the other quotes? Or should I just scrap that idea completly?

Hmm...their fear of the internet is a road block. The best thing I can ask is to please pray. Pray the Holy Spirit removes this road block and makes a clear view.

All great! I plan on going to that site soon. Thank you.

[Deb101]

I think the simplest answer is the discussion of the two men Paul has in Romans chapter 5 -

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Adam was more than simply the first man, he was the federal head of physical creation and mankind and so when he sinned he passed that corrupted nature and flesh to all mankind and physical creation. Only through another man could things be made right. That Champion Man was promised to Eve in Gen 3:15. Christ is the first fruits, the new man and new federal head that will last through eternity.