The resurrection of Jesus Christ

[james46888]

Thank you friend. Why'd didn't I hold onto that ? That was a long time ago....Do you think it's risky if I told them I found something on their JW site and printed it out to show them that had to do with the fathers and than show them the other quotes? Or should I just scrap that idea completly?

The text of the booklet is on their site here: http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_03.htm. Now you'll note they never give footnotes for those "quotes" from the church fathers. I wonder why? . Just point out to them you have seen those quotes from the church fathers on their site (they'll probably be happy you were even reading their sites) and note that you have info which casts doubt on the legitimacy of those quotes (try and find a neutral site that carries church father quotes). Note to the JWs that their own article says, "The ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ's birth. What they taught is of interest." If they're interested in truth rather than just defending thier belief system, this should cause their conscience a problem since it's clear the watchtower has been misquoting the church fathers and, after all, if the watchtower has lied about this, what else could they be lying about? Hopefully the JW will think about that.

[Snoopynstorm]

I think the simplest answer is the discussion of the two men Paul has in Romans chapter 5 -

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Adam was more than simply the first man, he was the federal head of physical creation and mankind and so when he sinned he passed that corrupted nature and flesh to all mankind and physical creation. Only through another man could things be made right. That Champion Man was promised to Eve in Gen 3:15. Christ is the first fruits, the new man and new federal head that will last through eternity.

Wait, that brings up a very importent question the JW's have tried to "use" to point out how "Jesus couldn't possibly be God."

"How could Jesus be God? Sin came through a man Adam. The sacrifice wouldn't be equal if God died for people's sins." I know JW's have used that before.

Hmm...this may be a very importent point to make. They have a different set of vocabulary(that's what I'm reading up on in "Kingdom of the Cults", about cults' vocabulary). When we think of Adam sinning and Jesus dieing for our sins we think on how He died for everyone. They think Jesus only died for our inherited sins from Adam. So, if I tell them Jesus died for our sins they'll be thinking Jesus only died for Adam's sin (the sin we got from Adam) while I'm thinking something else.

Thanks for bringing up that point about Adam. It has let me see that one of the deeper issues lies in the vocabulary problem.

The text of the booklet is on their site here: http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_03.htm. Now you'll note they never give footnotes for those "quotes" from the church fathers. I wonder why? . Just point out to them you have seen those quotes from the church fathers on their site (they'll probably be happy you were even reading their sites) and note that you have info which casts doubt on the legitimacy of those quotes (try and find a neutral site that carries church father quotes). Note to the JWs that their own article says, "The ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ's birth. What they taught is of interest." If they're interested in truth rather than just defending thier belief system, this should cause their conscience a problem since it's clear the watchtower has been misquoting the church fathers and, after all, if the watchtower has lied about this, what else could they be lying about? Hopefully the JW will think about that.

Thank you friend. Please pray the Holy Spirit gives me courage to do what is right and He uses it the way He thinks is best. For I'm really nervous. Why? Because they don't see "neutral" sites as "neutral". They view anything not JW is of Satan...:sighs: This is a very big step. Pray the Holy Spirit uses it in His time and whenever He wills it.

[james46888]

Thank you friend. Please pray the Holy Spirit gives me courage to do what is right and He uses it the way He thinks is best. For I'm really nervous. Why? Because they don't see "neutral" sites as "neutral". They view anything not JW is of Satan.

With them quotes, I think you'll find that none of the JWs (apart from maybe those higher up in the organisation) have actually read the church fathers - they just simply blindly believe those citations are accurate. You could ask them to prove they're accurate. Problem for them is they have to get a book or internet source to do this and they won't be able to

[Snoopynstorm]

With them quotes, I think you'll find that none of the JWs (apart from maybe those higher up in the organisation) have actually read the church fathers - they just simply blindly believe those citations are accurate. You could ask them to prove they're accurate. Problem for them is they have to get a book or internet source to do this and they won't be able to

Does an elder count as being higher up? What about an elder's wife? I know woman aren't viewed very highly but is it importent the lady is the wife of an elder?