Injustice for King Saul?

[Wally]

Thanks for the followup Randall, Buzz.


I did a biblegateway search and could not find a "Saul pray" reference (except for Paul's conversion).

Where David recorded prayers, petitions, and meditations, I don't see any prayers from Saul.

[Deb101]

Two points to add to the mix;

1. "evil" does not always mean immoral.

2. As long as any of us approach God with the thought that "I" am right and God is wrong, we will never understand a thing.

God IS light and in Him is no darkness at all. - period, end of sentence end of paragraph. (1Jn 1:5)

[Raphael]

OT foreshadowing?

"But, Lord, have we not (done etc., etc., etc.)..."

"Depart from Me......I never knew you."

[OnceWasLost]

1 Samuel 13:7-14 New King James Version (NKJV)


7 And some of the Hebrews crossed over the Jordan to the land of Gad and Gilead.

As for Saul, he was still in Gilgal, and all the people followed him trembling. 8 Then he waited seven days, according to the time set by Samuel. But Samuel did not come to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him. 9 So Saul said, “Bring a burnt offering and peace offerings here to me.” And he offered the burnt offering. 10 Now it happened, as soon as he had finished presenting the burnt offering, that Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might greet him.

11 And Samuel said, “What have you done?”

Saul said, “When I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that you did not come within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered together at Michmash, 12 then I said, ‘The Philistines will now come down on me at Gilgal, and I have not made supplication to the Lord.’ Therefore I felt compelled, and offered a burnt offering.”

13 And Samuel said to Saul, “You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God, which He commanded you. For now the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. 14 But now your kingdom shall not continue. The Lord has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the Lord has commanded him to be commander over His people, because you have not kept what the Lord commanded you.”


Tests of faith.
We all endure them. Some of us may even succeed .... now and then.

Saul had a habit of rash decisions, one almost cost him his son. Although Saul would inquire of God
he was quick to take matters into his own hands. Do any of us do the same?

Perhaps when we get riled about injustice or politics..... or the kids wont listen.

It would be a difficult thing to talk about Saul's salvation. Some matters are hid. We do know he made some very bad mistakes.
But I find no reference of Saul praying. Sure he seeks information, but do you see him even giving God the glory?
As for forgiveness, I can't find a verse where Saul asks for it.

Whereas David spent alot of time on his knees. Prayers, psalms worship. David's conduct is much more obvious.


David wept in repentance - acknowledging his sin.
Saul got caught or belittled - then excused himself - You were late Samuel.....

God's character is that He desires the best for us and from us. He sends trials to refine our character.
How we respond tends to indicate if we are growing or not. God will continue to work in His wisdom, in His time.

Where, in this age of grace, we may struggle with the notion, Saul got a bad deal,
We can demonstrate our own faith by trusting God. Even in the moments when it just don't seem right.

It can be tough, but glorifying God in adversity is a lot tougher, but then the focus of Glory neesds to rest on Him.

Excellent!

Let's remember before they demanded a king God warned them that the man they would choose would be a bad player. (I Samuel 8:10-22) God saw their insistence on a king as rejection of Him.

I Samuel 15 is a great passage to demonstrate Saul's error and God's desire for him, yet he was not a man with a tender heart towards God. His disobedience in I Samuel 15 leads to this great couple of verses.

I Samuel 22-23

“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,
And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
He also has rejected you from being king.”

He was a willful man, a proud man, who did not value the things of God. I Samuel 8 makes that clear, as God told the people what Saul would be like before he came on the scene. They rejected God and chose to be a monarchy, they chose a flawed man who did exactly what God said he would. After Saul God gave them David as a better model and the nation was never the same. Solomon had his moments of greatness but divided the kingdom and it never recovered. The reign of the kings was ultimately as bad as it's beginnings.

Even when he was caught being them fleshy man he was his repentance was not genuine, since he repeated the same offenses repeatedly. There is a big difference to say you are sorry when you got busted, as opposed to not having a change of heart over your offense to begin with.

[bernard]

That is a great suggestion... lets read more of those verses...




Saul's true intentions are shown in those following verses. He asked that Samuel (not the Lord) forgive him so that Samuel would return with him so that he would not be shamed in front of the elders. His heart wasn't towards the Lord at all it was towards his own vanity. He was only using the "worship" for show purposes. He was only professing - not truely seeking the Lord. He was only filling the pew. He would say anything that he thought Samuel wanted to hear in order to get the honor from the elders that he so desperately wanted. Mouthing the words "I have sinned" is not repentance.

His crime was really horrendous. He was acting as a Priest-King. That position is reserved only for the Messiah.

Here is another glimpse the Holy Spirit gives into Saul's true heart -- in verse 30 "that I may worship the LORD thy God." Not "our God". Saul did not consider the Lord to be Saul's God.

you are slowly coming to my realisation but there is still something I need to point out
- lets not forget that in the time of Kings, prophets represented God in a way 1 Samuel 16:4 and 1 Samuel 8:6-7
lets not rush to conclude that Saul didn't consider God as his God #the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob it MIGHT be just referencing

Its true Saul did not have a heart after God like David... He just never understood God's ways... everything he did and thought was good, turned out bad like sparring those best animals to sacrifice to God.... he was quiet loyal he almost killed his son at one time
I tell you if you look at Saul with the eyes of love you see that he was in a tough position
God sent evil spirits to him and put his deliverance in David's music
on the other hand everything David did turned out to be right, he and his man eat the bread from the temple which wasn't allowed but it was justified even Jesus mentioned it to the Pharisees
when David heard that Ebed Edom had been blessed for staying with the ark that's when he went to get it where he had it abandoned after it had killed uzzah on his previous attempt to retrieve it
Not mention the prayer and fasting for Solomon's brother who died by David, which was an evil thing and even Solomon being a king was not right, why? because he was from Bethasheba the stolen wife whose husband was murdered
lets not get into much details about how these guys were falling short

its about why one wasn't saved and the other saved was Saul so undeserving

[bernard]

This is the second time I've seen God hurt by something He did the first was the flood
My conclusion to this whole story was that no matter how good Saul tried it was still going to be a failure why because it simply wasn't God's plan...... the pain came at the realisation that Saul walked into a battle he didn't know between God and Israel, were Israel wanted a human leader and God still wanted to rule them
everything that's not God plan leads to death
Samuel said God is not a man that can lie or change his mind bring up the fact that Saul downfall was inevitable

the lesson I learnt from this is never try help God in anyway let His will be and there will be a happy ever after
don't drag God into your will or into a project or mission Join only that which He begins
builders may build a house but if the Lord doesn't build with them they do it in vain
God is also prepared to destroy anything that takes his place
those who are led by the spirit ARE the Sons of God but to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

[bernard]

OT foreshadowing?

"But, Lord, have we not (done etc., etc., etc.)..."

"Depart from Me......I never knew you."

very true indeed

[Buzzardhut]

This is the second time I've seen God hurt by something He did the first was the flood
My conclusion to this whole story was that no matter how good Saul tried it was still going to be a failure why because it simply wasn't God's plan...... the pain came at the realisation that Saul walked into a battle he didn't know between God and Israel, were Israel wanted a human leader and God still wanted to rule them
everything that's not God plan leads to death
Samuel said God is not a man that can lie or change his mind bring up the fact that Saul downfall was inevitable

the lesson I learnt from this is never try help God in anyway let His will be and there will be a happy ever after
don't drag God into your will or into a project or mission Join only that which He begins
builders may build a house but if the Lord doesn't build with them they do it in vain
God is also prepared to destroy anything that takes his place
those who are led by the spirit ARE the Sons of God but to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

Several contradictions here. God predestined a plan that hurts Himself and that God and man has no recourse but to follow God's pre-scripting? A very fatalistic concept.

[bernard]

Thanks for the followup Randall, Buzz.


I did a biblegateway search and could not find a "Saul pray" reference (except for Paul's conversion).

Where David recorded prayers, petitions, and meditations, I don't see any prayers from Saul.

1 Samuel 14:41
and I'm wondering would you consider offering sacrifice as praying?
#Saul never delayed every time he saw the opportunity lool

[Buzzardhut]

1 Samuel 14:41
and I'm wondering would you consider offering sacrifice as praying?
#Saul never delayed every time he saw the opportunity lool

Falling for King Saul's lip service never tricked the God who can see a man's heart and true intentions.

[bernard]

Several contradictions here. God predestined a plan that hurts Himself and that God and man has no recourse but to follow God's pre-scripting? A very fatalistic concept.

He didn't, He actually tried explaining to the Israelites what a King would mean It wasn't His plan
it was the peoples plan...... who suggested to have a king? the elders of the city
Our father who art............thy will be done
David say I look unto the hills but where does my help come from it comes from the Lord
if not God where can man turn to? where?

[Steve53]

Several contradictions here. God predestined a plan that hurts Himself and that God and man has no recourse but to follow God's pre-scripting? A very fatalistic concept.

Calvin would be proud.

[Wally]

1 Samuel 14:41
and I'm wondering would you consider offering sacrifice as praying?
#Saul never delayed every time he saw the opportunity lool

Numbers 22:9
Then God came to Balaam and said, “Who are these men with you?”


your point?

[RandallB]

you are slowly coming to my realisation but there is still something I need to point out
- lets not forget that in the time of Kings, prophets represented God in a way 1 Samuel 16:4 and 1 Samuel 8:6-7
lets not rush to conclude that Saul didn't consider God as his God #the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob it MIGHT be just referencing

Its true Saul did not have a heart after God like David... He just never understood God's ways... everything he did and thought was good, turned out bad like sparring those best animals to sacrifice to God.... he was quiet loyal he almost killed his son at one time
I tell you if you look at Saul with the eyes of love you see that he was in a tough position
God sent evil spirits to him and put his deliverance in David's music
on the other hand everything David did turned out to be right, he and his man eat the bread from the temple which wasn't allowed but it was justified even Jesus mentioned it to the Pharisees
when David heard that Ebed Edom had been blessed for staying with the ark that's when he went to get it where he had it abandoned after it had killed uzzah on his previous attempt to retrieve it
Not mention the prayer and fasting for Solomon's brother who died by David, which was an evil thing and even Solomon being a king was not right, why? because he was from Bethasheba the stolen wife whose husband was murdered
lets not get into much details about how these guys were falling short

its about why one wasn't saved and the other saved was Saul so undeserving

Not coming fast nor slowly to your realization Bernard. Because your realization seems to paint the Lord as capricious.

I am looking at Saul thru the windows that the Holy Spirit has provided to me thru the scripture. I do see two men that were not perfect and did sin. One always turned to the Lord with repentance when confronted with his sin. One did not. You cannot gloss over that difference.

Bernard, you stated in a previous posts:
"this post is trying to see exactly what went wrong with Saul."
"its about why one wasn't saved and the other saved was Saul so undeserving"
"WHY did GOD ACT THIS WAY TOWARDS SAUL? WHY? "

Kliska, JPE, Buzzardhut, Wally, OnceWasLost, and Verisimilitude have all answered those questions very well.

You seem to be searching for something else.

What do you think about the question that Kliska asked you --->"Or is the thought that God is not treating Saul fairly? "

Or do you feel that the Lord chose David and rejected Saul before the foundation of the world and there was nothing either one of them could do about it?

[Buzzardhut]

He didn't, He actually tried explaining to the Israelites what a King would mean It wasn't His plan
it was the peoples plan...... who suggested to have a king? the elders of the city
Our father who art............thy will be done
David say I look unto the hills but where does my help come from it comes from the Lord
if not God where can man turn to? where?

Did God plan for the people to plan?

[bernard]

Falling for King Saul's lip service never tricked the God who can see a man's heart and true intentions.

how can one tell if Saul was just giving lip serve? if so why would Samuel not have told him? that you say Lord Lord with just your mouth? where your treasure is so is your heart.... sacrifices suggest something else and Samuel's reasons were not hypocrisy it was the wrong concept obedience is better than sacrifice

[Buzzardhut]

how can one tell if Saul was just giving lip serve? if so why would Samuel not have told him? that you say Lord Lord with just your mouth? where your treasure is so is your heart.... sacrifices suggest something else and Samuel's reasons were not hypocrisy it was the wrong concept obedience is better than sacrifice

Because he would have been saved but he chose to follow his own will, not God's will; as long as you keep believing God picks some for heaven and picks others to do evil works for Him until time for hell you will maintain your notion that God has an evil hard heart and man is fatalistically bound to his evil predestined rules.

[Kliska]

how can one tell if Saul was just giving lip serve?

God can tell.

if so why would Samuel not have told him? that you say Lord Lord with just your mouth? where your treasure is so is your heart.... sacrifices suggest something else and Samuel's reasons were not hypocrisy it was the wrong concept obedience is better than sacrifice

Faith, faith, faith. It is all about faith, faith is an internal response. This is why external action (good or bad) cannot tell us if someone is saved/following God, etc... David had faith in God. Saul lacked faith in God. Faith is trusting with great confidence. We are not pre-programmed to faith, we choose it.

[Steve53]

We are not pre-programmed to faithe or not, we chose it.

Correct, we all choose, or not, for, or against, God. Saul made his choice.

[bernard]

Did God plan for the people to plan?

If you are trying to confuse me its working
I don't get what you mean