The Rapture or Evolution?

[TimothyK]

Why do you assume that i dismissed the bible as a bunch of gobbledygook? I didn't. I believed it and understood it to say exactly what you believe it to say.

And what is it that I believe? You've failed so far to describe my faith generally with any accuracy, let alone are you able to understand the intricacies what I believe.

You're making my point. You're proving God's Word even now. Consider that for a moment and what you're going to do with that revelation.

You can fight against it, or perhaps you might humble yourself and pray for a better fate. God is the God over the 'gods' of luck and fate. He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. It's not too late to change course.

Jesus Christ came for such a purpose, that you might choose Him instead. He suffered more then any man, died, and was raised for your sake, out of love, that you may now have a choice in the matter.

Choose wisely.

Been there, did that, was convinced I was speaking to and hearing from God.

If you were, you would be able to answer the former questions a bit better then you've managed thus far. You were deceived. Of your religion or yourself, God knows.

It's not too late to change direction. Please review the materials you've been graciously presented with.

Steve and iSong alone pretty much did your homework for you.

Pray for discernment, for understanding. Want it. I can't tell you to 'want' something, God Himself won't be forcing you to accept Him.

Only you can decide that and what you're going to do with what you've been given, but please, do that. Pray. Honestly want to 'get' what God has to offer you.

Reconsider what you think you understand about Christianity. Icebergs ahead. Change your course. You're heading for an exceedingly awful end at present.

1 John 2:19-23
They went out from our number, but they did not [really] belong to us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But [they withdrew] that it might be plain that they all are not of us.

But you have been anointed by [you hold a sacred appointment from, you have been given an unction from] the Holy One, and you all know [the Truth] or you know all things.

I write to you not because you are ignorant and do not perceive and know the Truth, but because you do perceive and know it, and [know positively] that nothing false (no deception, no lie) is of the Truth.

Who is [such a] liar as he who denies that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah)? He is the antichrist (the antagonist of Christ), who [habitually] denies and refuses to acknowledge the Father and the Son.

No one who [habitually] denies (disowns) the Son even has the Father. Whoever confesses (acknowledges and has) the Son has the Father also.

2 John 1:5-7
And now I beg you, lady (Cyria), not as if I were issuing a new charge (injunction or command), but [simply recalling to your mind] the one we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

And what this love consists in is this: that we live and walk in accordance with and guided by His commandments (His orders, ordinances, precepts, teaching).

This is the commandment, as you have heard from the beginning, that you continue to walk in love [guided by it and following it].

For many imposters (seducers, deceivers, and false leaders) have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge (confess, admit) the coming of Jesus Christ (the Messiah) in bodily form.

Such a one is the imposter (the seducer, the deceiver, the false leader, the antagonist of Christ) and the antichrist.

I'm not sure if there was an actual itinerant preacher named Yeshua/Joshua on whom the Gospel stories are based.

It doesn't really matter one way or another.

I don't believe in life after death.

I see no reason to place the Jesus story in a different category from the Krishna story, or the Buddha story, or the Zoroaster story, or any other ancient tale.

I feel somewhat chagrined at having spent so many years believing irrational nonsense, and more than a bit annoyed at having been lied to by so very many pastors.

Surely one of them must have known that what he was saying had, at the best, a very shaky foundation.

[Steve53]

I feel somewhat chagrined at having spent so many years believing irrational nonsense...

Atheist's famous last words.

[mbrown1219]

http://bible.cc/proverbs/9-10.htm

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...25&version=ESV

Proverbs 3:7; Proverbs 16:2; Proverbs 21:2; Proverbs 26:12; Proverbs 14:12; Proverbs 16:25 (English Standard Version)

ing for more wisdom in these last days.

[Buzzardhut]

In 1992, I moved to Israel with my wife and daughter. We lived there for 7 years, during which time I learned Hebrew and studied 1st-century Judaism and Christianity in antiquity. And I found out, to my dismay, that many things that I'd been hearing confidently spoken from American pulpits simply had no basis in fact. Among those was the uniquely American doctrine of the Rapture.

You will get lots of garbage preaching from pulpits these days

NO CHRISTIAN anywhere was teaching anything about the faithful being swept away into the sky during or prior to a worldwide "tribulation" prior to Cotton Mather and his son, Increase. That's not how the Church Fathers interpreted Paul's teachings. In fact, the Book of Revelation was seen by the Early Church as applying to their times, not to some distant future event. The "beast that sits on seven hills" was a clear reference to Rome, the city on seven hills. Almost all of the symbolic language in Revelation can be found in Daniel, which could be considered the "key" to Revelation.

You've missed out on a lot of good preaching and teaching. I'm sorry.

What caused me to walk away from the church was not this or any other discovery, however. It was the reaction of American Christians to what I had learned, after I came back home to the USA. What I discovered was that, when challenged, the church acts no differently from any cult or group of fans or political party you care to name. Rather than react in a way that would set them apart from "the world," Christians reacted exactly like the world. My struggles to understand were met, not with compassion but with derision. I was treated not with patience and kindness, but instead with anger and fear. My questions were not addressed, but were simply dismissed.

You equate going to church with salvation, you can walk away from church but can't walk away from salvation once you are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

I discovered, in other words, that what the Bible says about those who trust in Jesus simply is not true. Christians are no different than anyone else. In fact, this is borne out by every secular study ever done: Unmarried teenaged pregnancy rates are the same among believers as among nonbelievers. Abortion rates? The same. Tobacco and alcohol use/abuse? The same. Sex outside of wedlock? The same. By any metric you care to name, the so-called "church" cannot be distinguished in any meaningful way from the unbelievers.

What does the sins of others have to do with your personal salvation? You need to be concerned with your position in Christ first before you can point the finger and harp about others.

The reactions I got to what I learned in Jerusalem were the blunt-force trauma that caused me to re-examine Christianity as a whole. Unfortunately, I see those same exact reactions on this thread, as well. Fear, anger, and dismissal. The believer who is confused by the facts is expected to either get back in line (and ignore the facts) or go away. The "love of Christ" is, sadly, lacking.

No fear here, I'm totally secure in Christ. No anger here; I'm quite calm; maybe I'm a little concerned you came just to troll and play the old meanie Christian card...

Praying your double blindness will be lifted.

I was saved in 1987, and the first church I attended was a Foursquare Gospel church. I pretty much stayed with Pentecostal/Charismatic churches after that, changing churches only when I moved from one place to another. Over the years I have attended Foursquare, Calvary Chapel, Lutheran (LCMS), Southern Baptist, Messianic/Jewish, Vineyard, and a number of non-denominational churches. I traveled a lot at one point, volunteering for a well-known charity and giving presentations at various churches and Christian concerts.

You've been to lots of churches but have you been to the cross for salvation?
Everyone has had bad experiences in churches because it is full of lost people and saved people living in the flesh, we can't avoid that and have to focus on our position in Christ, not our position with other people, if you are sincere and hurting then I ask you to get alone with God and scripture because when life is over that is all that really counts, not us, not your neighbor, just You and God.

http://www.buzzardhut.net/Reasons.htm

[TheRedeemed]

.... I ask you to get alone with God and scripture because when life is over that is all that really counts, not us, not your neighbor, just You and God.....

Oh how I wish the rest of humanity would understand this very basic point, well done and well said as that sums up everyone's issue from self confessed believer's all the way down to the Richard Dawkins of this world.

[jonshaff]

irrational nonsense

But a "big bang" is easier to believe? Or the fact we came from sea slugs, or "dead matter?"

Did you "depress" your "rational" button in order to believe that nonsense?

[Buzzardhut]

I don't believe in life after death. I see no reason to place the Jesus story in a different category from the Krishna story, or the Buddha story, or the Zoroaster story, or any other ancient tale. I feel somewhat chagrined at having spent so many years believing irrational nonsense, and more than a bit annoyed at having been lied to by so very many pastors. Surely one of them must have known that what he was saying had, at the best, a very shaky foundation.

I doubt pastors wanted to lie, they want to preach scripture, sounds like you spend too much time on the neo-atheist sites and looking around at others instead of keeping your focus on Christ.

Proverbs 4:1 Hear, my children, the instruction of a father,
And give attention to know understanding;

Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good doctrine
Do not forsake my law.

Proverbs 4:3 When I was my father’s son,
Tender and the only one in the sight of my mother,

Proverbs 4:4 He also taught me, and said to me:
“Let your heart retain my words;
Keep my commands, and live.

Proverbs 4:5 Get wisdom! Get understanding!

Do not forget, nor turn away from the words of my mouth.

Proverbs 4:6 Do not forsake her, and she will preserve you;
Love her, and she will keep you.

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing;
Therefore get wisdom.
And in all your getting, get understanding.

Proverbs 4:8 Exalt her, and she will promote you;
She will bring you honor, when you embrace her.

Proverbs 4:9 She will place on your head an ornament of grace;
A crown of glory she will deliver to you.”

Proverbs 4:10 Hear, my son, and receive my sayings,
And the years of your life will be many.

Proverbs 4:11 I have taught you in the way of wisdom;
I have led you in right paths.

Proverbs 4:12 When you walk, your steps will not be hindered,
And when you run, you will not stumble.

Proverbs 4:13 Take firm hold of instruction, do not let go;
Keep her, for she is your life.

Proverbs 4:14 Do not enter the path of the wicked,
And do not walk in the way of evil.

Proverbs 4:15 Avoid it, do not travel on it;
Turn away from it and pass on.

Proverbs 4:16 For they do not sleep unless they have done evil;
And their sleep is taken away unless they make someone fall.

Proverbs 4:17 For they eat the bread of wickedness,
And drink the wine of violence.

Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is like the shining sun,[a]
That shines ever brighter unto the perfect day.

Proverbs 4:19 The way of the wicked is like darkness;
They do not know what makes them stumble.

Proverbs 4:20 My son, give attention to my words;
Incline your ear to my sayings.

Proverbs 4:21 Do not let them depart from your eyes;
Keep them in the midst of your heart;

Proverbs 4:22 For they are life to those who find them,
And health to all their flesh.

Proverbs 4:23 Keep your heart with all diligence,
For out of it spring the issues of life.

Proverbs 4:24 Put away from you a deceitful mouth,
And put perverse lips far from you.

Proverbs 4:25 Let your eyes look straight ahead,
And your eyelids look right before you.

Proverbs 4:26 Ponder the path of your feet,
And let all your ways be established.

Proverbs 4:27 Do not turn to the right or the left;
Remove your foot from evil.

[Buzzardhut]

But a "big bang" is easier to believe? Or the fact we came from sea slugs, or "dead matter?"

Did you "depress" your "rational" button in order to believe that nonsense?

"On the backs of alien crystals" makes more sense.

[jonshaff]

"On the backs of alien crystals" makes more sense.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

It takes an imagination to even conceive this guy's beliefs.

[Buzzardhut]

The rapture doctrine came from the Bible; where else?

From Cotton Mather.

[HeIsEnough]

How is that different from walking away because you want to sin? Seems to me that it fits into the only two reasons I ever believed were real.

Because it is what you've done. Even in walking away, you don't walk away. Did you actually think by ignoring God, you could actually do it? Did it occur to you that if there was a God, it would be a little fruitless? I see atheists all day long argue over things they don't believe. You have defended christians, that seems noble.

The evidence of the Church is the only evidence I can objectively measure.

And Jesus objectively told us it will be this way, you do not have an informed opinion, as far as the scriptures go, no offense. Savage wolves entered in, and sheep are just sheep, and God's plans are way above your head. The church, the called-out ones, are a means to an end, not the end, it is still to come, rewards will be given, life everlasting.

And the Church (by which I mean the Spirit-filled, Bible-believing, Evangelical Church) does not measure up to the standards claimed by the Bible.

Still not getting it, let me help. There are believers within those churches, but those places are not the church. The standards of being saved are clear. They seem to get it, you seem not to get it. The measuring stick is to be covered in the righteousness of Christ. It is all men could ever do, its all God requires, it is good news. It perhaps seems a strange concept to you, because your complaints show you do not understand these things.

In fact, nothing about Christianity measures up to the claims made in the Bible. Whatever is asked in Jesus' Name is not given. The world does not know you by your love one for another. The "righteous" are all too often forsaken, and their children die of starvation just like everyone else. The only possible way to argue that these things are untrue is through the use of tautologies, generally of the "No True Scotsman" variety.

Or experience, which you do not possess, and again, knowledge of the scriptures. I've seen many saints pass this life with praise for Christ on their lips, they win, they've run the race, they've kept the faith. That is what those in Christ are promised, to not be let go, to not be forsaken. Men die because this world is cursed. You live in it, it should be 'objectively' recognizable, unless of course you believe you are a monkey's cousin.

You were promised it would be difficult, and apparently it was too difficult for you. Yes, thats in the scriptures as well, you will be tested. Have you failed the test? That all you could ever do, is your duty, to do the right thing without a reward in this life, like a cookie or something. I suppose those who attempt to use God like that will become disappointed, and think God forsakes His own. God remains God, and whether you try to challenge Him or not, He wins in the end, and rewards the same.

[araj54]

These type of threads make me sad. I seen all to many people that allow doubt to creep in, and almost always what follows is putting God on trial using His word against Him. All the why does God allow or He said this and it didn't happen. The more these questions are asked the more they make sense to the one asking them.
So they will get to a point when they no longer trust God or His Word.

I'm not a bible scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but what I see in His Word is Trust Him, have never wavering faith, period. I have seen the Hand of God move in my life and others countless times in many different ways. My life has been far from perfect, in fact I've had so many ups and downs that just thinking about them makes my head spin. But I have come out through the muck and mire with an unshakable faith that may not have been possible without the many trials.

[Buzzardhut]

Because it is what you've done. Even in walking away, you don't walk away. Did you actually think by ignoring God, you could actually do it? Did it occur to you that if their was a God, it would be a little fruitless? I see atheists all day long argue over things they don't believe.

Still not getting it. There are believers within those churches, but those places are not the church. The standards of being saved are clear. They seem to get it, you seem not to get it.


Or experience, which you do not possess, and again, knowledge of the scriptures. I've seen many saints pass this life with praise for Christ on their lips, they win, they've run the race, they've kept the faith. That is what those in Christ are promised, to not be let go, to not be forsaken. Men die because this world is cursed. You live in it, it should be 'objectively' recognizable, unless of course you believe you are a monkey's cousin.

You were promised it would be difficult, and apparently it was too difficult for you. Yes, thats in the scriptures as well, you will be tested. Have you failed the test? That all you could ever do, is your duty, to do the right thing without a reward in this life, like a cookie or something. I suppose those who attempt to use God like that will become disappointed, and think God forsakes His own. God remains God, and whether you try to challenge Him or not, He wins in the end, and rewards the same.

Quitters never win and winners never quit!

Unless you're a monkey or something...

These type of threads make me sad. I seen all to many people that allow doubt to creep in, and almost always what follows is putting God on trial using His word against Him. All the why does God allow or He said this and it didn't happen. The more these questions are asked the more they make sense to the one asking them.
So they will get to a point when they no longer trust God or His Word.

I'm not a bible scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but what I see in His Word is Trust Him, have never wavering faith, period. I have seen the Hand of God move in my life and others countless times in many different ways. My life has been far from perfect, in fact I've had so many ups and downs that just thinking about them makes my head spin. But I have come out through the muck and mire with an unshakable faith that may not have been possible without the many trials.

I never understood how people can blame God or Christians for anything, for some strange reason they always leave satan out of the equation.

I've had good times and bad times in life. I've had very hard times when I hated myself, despised others, disappointed with my lot in life, cynical about people and situations but for some reason I've never left God; I've felt times where I thought I was very far away from God and that my prayers were useless and worthless but for some reason I have never blamed God. I understood satan and demons are always on the attack and for some reason I've always known to stick with God and stay close to the Shepherd. I realize bad days will come again for me and I hope even better days will come, my faith is in Jesus' blood from His crucifixion, in that I believe and no one can take away what God has given to me and for that I am eternally with God and eternally grateful.

[Jan51]

If there is a God, and He loves me and is just, then He won't let me die and go to Hell, because I've been as open and honest as I possibly can in giving Him ample opportunities to change my heart and my mind.

If there isn't a God, then evolution must be true. There is no other option. So you believe matter came from non-matter, and life came from non-life? And you find that more intellectually satisfying?

Nowhere in the Bible is "open and honest" the criterion for salvation.

God will not make your choices for you or force you to make right choices. God already did His part, now each of us must make our own choices, and we will be held accountable for our choices, and for the amount of light we had. He will even help us with the choices we make: if we make, or want to make, right choices, He will help us, and if we make, or want to make, bad choices, He will help us do what is in our hearts. Consider Pharaoh who, it says repeatedly, hardened his heart. Eventually it says, God hardened his heart.

[HeIsEnough]

almost always what follows is putting God on trial using His word against Him.

Funny how that works. For all the supremely scholarly, objective and critical thinking atheist types who come here, it never fails. They put on the garb of atheist, esquire extraordinaire, and proceed to move the Devil out of his prosecutor chair and try their own brand of accusing the brethren, or blaming God. Yet, for all the schoolin and the smarts, they cannot even see what they are doing, and get extremely defensive when its pointed out. The human heart is truly out of touch with its own actions. Sad.

But I have come out through the muck and mire with an unshakable faith that may not have been possible without the many trials.

God will shake out the curious, the hungry, the money lovers and what not to get to the real believers. The rest will blame the Lord for what they have done.

[Kliska]

I can't believe I missed all the "fun." What floors me is that there are still people that try to act as though they don't believe Jesus was a historical figure, even secular historians agree on His actual existence. Too many sources, including all the Biblical manuscripts, attest to that fact.

Another, very important point, they obvious have not been taught correctly, as Jesus Himself said that the wheat resembles tares, and tares resemble wheat. We will not be able, based on external actions, to know who is saved and who is not; it is not for us to decide, but rather only God can judge. There are Hindu's, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.. that have outward actions that are kind and loving; however, all of that is as filthy rags when held up to God's standard. There were Corinthians acting worse than pagan heathens that were believers. To judge God based on man's fallen nature is an illogical reason to cease believing in God.

[Buzzardhut]

I can't believe I missed all the "fun." What floors me is that there are still people that try to act as though they don't believe Jesus was a historical figure, even secular historians agree on His actual existence. Too many sources, including all the Biblical manuscripts, attest to that fact.

Another, very important point, they obvious have not been taught correctly, as Jesus Himself said that the wheat resembles tares, and tares resemble wheat. We will not be able, based on external actions, to know who is saved and who is not; it is not for us to decide, but rather only God can judge. There are Hindu's, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.. that have outward actions that are kind and loving; however, all of that is as filthy rags when held up to God's standard. There were Corinthians acting worse than pagan heathens that were believers. To judge God based on man's fallen nature is an illogical reason to cease believing in God.

How dare you judge me and be so mean and rude and calling my friends pagans; I'm leaving....

[HeIsEnough]

I'm so offended!

Meanies.

[Kliska]

How dare you judge me and be so mean and rude and calling my friends pagans; I'm leaving....

[Steve53]

Another, very important point, they obvious have not been taught correctly, as Jesus Himself said that the wheat resembles tares, and tares resemble wheat.

Not really sure our latest poster was genuinely taught anything at all from a Biblical perspective. Using the following excerpt as just one example, we can see classic atheistic posturing 101 straight from the talking points handbook and therefore evidence of a complete and utterly secular world view that could not be reconciled by any stretch of the imagination with any of Davka's claims concerning the Christian houses of worship he said he attended, or the belief he claimed he once held:

If there is a God, and He loves me and is just, then He won't let me die and go to Hell, because I've been as open and honest as I possibly can in giving Him ample opportunities to change my heart and my mind. I am only in danger if God is capricious, or hateful, or vengeful and unforgiving.

If he were able to post and continue to argue the veracity of his claims then Romans 1:21-22 becomes even more relevant to his circumstance - "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,..."