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Thread: Questions concerning the Pre-Trib Rapture

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandallB View Post


    However I feel that there is a hint of it in Is 26...

    Isaiah 26:17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.

    18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

    19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

    20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

    21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


    In this passage we see 1) Birth Pains, 2) A Resurrection, 3) A "My People" called to enter their chambers and be kept away from: 4) A Indignation/Punishment/Judgement by the Lord of the inhabitants of the earth for their sins.

    For some reason the "My People" are treated as if they have no sins.... Forgiven at the Cross????

    I believe that is talking about those who will "flee" to a place of safety DURING the mid-point of the trib, for the following reasons:

    1) the BEGINNING of birth pangs (Matthew 24:4-8 and elsewhere) occurs during the first half of the trib, and correlate with the seals of Revelation 6, which we know occur during the trib... and is not talking about what will happen BEFORE the trib (i.e. rapture, etc)

    2) a resurrection (in this passage, FUTURE, i.e. "shall arise") occurs AFTER the trib, that of OT (and trib) saints (Dan 12:1-2, 13)

    3) the phrase "My people," in the OT, means Israel

    4) there will be a believing remnant of Israel, in the trib (in Matthew 24:15-21), Jesus tells them (which are in Judea) to "flee" when they "see the abomination of desolation" (they will "be hidden" in safety in Petra/Bozrah; Rev 12:6, 14)... before that, they are told not to believe the false Christs (verse 5) and false prophets (verse 11)

    5) "the hour of trial" (Rev 3:10) is the first half of the trib, specifically; and, "the hour of judgment" (Rev 14:7) is the second half of the trib

    6) the "delivery" (of the birth pangs) is their promised/prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom


    That's how I see it.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by james46888 View Post
    Yes, there is more than one resurrection to come. You mention a least 4 groups there (though #4 is debated since some feel believers are immune from death in the Millennium) though keep in mind that is not the same as saying there are 4 raptures to come, since resurrection and rapture are not the same thing - "rapture" just refers to being snatched up to heaven. There will be the rapture of the Church and then we have the Two Witnesses who die and are then resurrected and raptured up into heaven.
    Can you explain if this is true why Rev. 20:1-6 describes the event as the first resurrection?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt11390 View Post
    Can you explain if this is true why Rev. 20:1-6 describes the event as the first resurrection?
    The last part of verse 5 'This is the first resurrection' links directly to verse 6. OT saints resurrect when Christ returns... end of tribulation. They will reign with Christ as priests for 1,000 years. After that, the 2nd resurrection (the second death), the great white throne judgement.
    Hebrews 11:3

    Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt11390 View Post
    Can you explain if this is true why Rev. 20:1-6 describes the event as the first resurrection?
    The First Resurrection is a resurrection of Life. It has multiple 'phases', with Christ being the firstfruits.

    The Second Resurrection is a resurrection of condemnation. There is only one phase and that occurs at the Great White Throne judgment.
    The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
    Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge.
    (Psa 19:1b-2)

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Bought View Post
    The last part of verse 5 'This is the first resurrection' links directly to verse 6. OT saints resurrect when Christ returns... end of tribulation. They will reign with Christ as priests for 1,000 years. After that, the 2nd resurrection (the second death), the great white throne judgement.
    Please believe me I am not being argumentative but just trying to find reconciliation in scriptures and what is being said here. Rev 20 is the only scripture that speaks of a specific timing of the resurrection, first that is.

    I hear and read "why" we will be raptured before the second coming but no specific scriptures give a timing. Many say we will escape God's wrath so we have to raptured before the trib. Or some use other scripture references like 1 Thessalonians but the fact is Rev 20 speaks about "when" the resurrection, or rapture, will happen.

    Can someone give a scriptural reference to resurrections before the second coming. No attempts for logical reasons why we will be raptured but scripture showing when. Please this will help me a lot. The rapture that we hold to so dearly is the resurrection. Thanks.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hootmon View Post
    The First Resurrection is a resurrection of Life. It has multiple 'phases', with Christ being the firstfruits.

    The Second Resurrection is a resurrection of condemnation. There is only one phase and that occurs at the Great White Throne judgment.
    Can you give scriptures sowing these "multiple phases" and not opinions as to why? Thanks.

  7. #47
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    Matt, this is a pre-Trib board only, just so you know. It wasn't originally but we found we spent too much time debating the issue and we just wanted our own oasis on the interwebz.

    Here is a great site presenting the case for a pre-Trib Rapture (with Scripture, of course) and related topics. I suggest you start with Dr Thomas Ice. http://pre-trib.org/articles
    "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


    Jesus + something = nothing

    Jesus + nothing = Everything

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hootmon View Post
    The First Resurrection is a resurrection of Life. It has multiple 'phases', with Christ being the firstfruits.

    The Second Resurrection is a resurrection of condemnation. There is only one phase and that occurs at the Great White Throne judgment.
    Agreed. And "each one in his own order." (1 Cor 15:23)

    Daniel, an OT saint, was told that he would die, but "stand in [his] lot at the end of the days." (Daniel 12:13; context being "at the end of the trib" that is being described in Daniel 12).

    OT saints believed (as they were promised) in the resurrection (which will occur at the time of commencement of their promised/prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) ... that they would stand again on the earth (resurrection)... and the "many" who were resurrected at the time of Jesus' death and resurrection (Matt 27:52-53) were a sampling of these OT saints (... they "went into the holy city," and this is what will take place at that future "gathering together" of the elect of Israel, Matt 24:29-31, 31; Isaiah 11:12, etc, into one place upon the earth, "AFTER the tribulation of those days" [the context being the second-half-trib/end-of-trib]).

    Paul, on the other hand, was the first to explain and reveal anything about a (pre-trib) rapture, which involves a "resurrection" at that same time also, a resurrection of those believers who have died "IN CHRIST" (that is, believers of this Church-age dispensation, i.e. the Body of Christ [whose "citizenship is in heaven," heavenly]), 1 Thess 4:16-17, 5:8-10; 2 Cor 5:1-4, 4; 1 Cor 15:51-53, 53.

    So where the concept of a "resurrection" is being talked about, in Scripture, one must distinguish whether it is referring to "the Church," or to "OT saints" or to "trib saints" (or even to "the two witnesses" IN the trib, etc), and distinguish the things which differ, amongst those passages.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt11390 View Post
    Please believe me I am not being argumentative but just trying to find reconciliation in scriptures and what is being said here. Rev 20 is the only scripture that speaks of a specific timing of the resurrection, first that is.

    I hear and read "why" we will be raptured before the second coming but no specific scriptures give a timing. Many say we will escape God's wrath so we have to raptured before the trib. Or some use other scripture references like 1 Thessalonians but the fact is Rev 20 speaks about "when" the resurrection, or rapture, will happen.

    Can someone give a scriptural reference to resurrections before the second coming. No attempts for logical reasons why we will be raptured but scripture showing when. Please this will help me a lot. The rapture that we hold to so dearly is the resurrection. Thanks.
    acceptedinthebeloved explains it nicely above.

    1/3 of Israel will receive their salvation at the 2nd coming (not the rapture of the church, the body of Christ). Zechariah 13:9, 1 Peter 1:7-9.

    It's important to let Israel be Israel, as they have specific promises and conditions in the tribulation. We today currently have the whole package of salvation. We have no purpose in tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:5-8 .. The body of Christ, the one new man has to be removed before that wicked be revealed.
    Hebrews 11:3

    Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt11390 View Post
    Can you give scriptures sowing these "multiple phases" and not opinions as to why? Thanks.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/resurrec...st-second.html

    If you have specific questions feel free to ask.
    The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
    Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge.
    (Psa 19:1b-2)

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt11390 View Post
    Can you explain if this is true why Rev. 20:1-6 describes the event as the first resurrection?
    The issue is that the word translated "first" there is "protos" and it can mean either "first in time" or "first in rank." For example, Paul refers to himself as the "chief" of sinners using the word "protos" and obviously he does not mean he was the first sinner to ever exist.

  12. #52
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    Good answers!



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  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by iSong6:3 View Post
    Matt, this is a pre-Trib board only, just so you know. It wasn't originally but we found we spent too much time debating the issue and we just wanted our own oasis on the interwebz.

    Here is a great site presenting the case for a pre-Trib Rapture (with Scripture, of course) and related topics. I suggest you start with Dr Thomas Ice. http://pre-trib.org/articles
    Thanks and one of the reasons I like coming to this forum is that is a pre-trib. I was saved at age 19, I'm much older now, and grew in the faith under the pre-trib view so I am familiar with it. To be honest I'm not sure when the rapture will happen and to be honest I'm not concerned because I trust God's wisdom and timing for it. I have been careful not to argue with other believers on this matter because in the grand scheme of things it is truly irrelevant to our salvation and our service because we are saved no matter when the rapture happens and we continue to faithfully serve until the rapture happens.

    Thanks you all for your answers and look forward to further discussions and the fellowship.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by iSong6:3 View Post
    Matt, this is a pre-Trib board only, just so you know. It wasn't originally but we found we spent too much time debating the issue and we just wanted our own oasis on the interwebz.

    Here is a great site presenting the case for a pre-Trib Rapture (with Scripture, of course) and related topics. I suggest you start with Dr Thomas Ice. http://pre-trib.org/articles
    See PM...
    Isaiah 41:10

    Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, Yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.

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