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Thread: Armed police officers in every school

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyK View Post
    The Germans weren't very surprised because that more or less happened. The comparison and the analogy are entirely accurate, semantics aside.

    i don't think it is semantics at all. the first hitler quote, the one from 1935, is just completely made up. that really isn't semantics.

    the idea behind the made up quote, is that despotic governments disarm the civilian population, and then are free to take power. so we should learn from that example and not let it happen here.

    but again, that isnt what happened. the nazis didnt take power that way. there was no rounding up of guns by them as a means to take power, naziz didnt even address gun registration until 1938. by that time, they had complete control of the country, the first of the concentration camps were in place (built in 33) and the atrocities of the nazi regime were underway full throat.

    a better analogy would be the way the nazi's used propaganda. they too used posters filled with misinformation to deceive the german public. posters that said Jews were like rodents. I suppose if one called them on the inaccuracy of it, they would have been told it was merely semantics.

    I am not saying you can't be on guard against a government disarming civil populations. I don't think it is a rational fear, but that is merely my opinion. But to justify the fear with analogy to what the Nazi's did is just incorrect. The first quote from 1935 simply isn't true. The idea that the Nazi's could not have done exactly what they did without gun control is not historically correct.

    Personally, i think there is a lot money behind guns. and that money uses disinformation like this to keep good people like you worked up and scared. its a false bogey man.

    I have no idea about the second quote, the one from 42. it sounds more authentic and plausible as being real. but it hardly supports the analogy given that it was from 42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard4566 View Post
    the idea behind the made up quote, is that despotic governments disarm the civilian population, and then are free to take power. so we should learn from that example and not let it happen here.

    but again, that isnt what happened. the nazis didnt take power that way. there was no rounding up of guns by them as a means to take power, naziz didnt even address gun registration until 1938.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard4566 View Post
    Germany had gun registration enacted prior to the Nazi's (in an ironic effort to stop the nazi's). The nazis did pass a law in 1938 requiring handgun permits (not rifles, shotguns) and it forbade jews from ownership of firearms.
    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyK View Post
    Correct. One government who paved the way for Hitler's regime with good intentions simply made it easier for this little antichrist to do his dirty work. Disarming your people is a bad idea. It's always been a bad idea. It remains a bad idea now.

    http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.co...tist/id14.html
    http://famguardian.org/Subjects/GunC...NaziGunLaw.htm

    The caption could stand to be a little more precise, but it isn't lying or outright wrong in what it states.

    Of course if it was picture perfect, it still wouldn't convince someone who is not willing to be honest about guns, legislated morality, and the condition of mankind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard4566 View Post
    The idea that the Nazi's could not have done exactly what they did without gun control is not historically correct.
    Based on what?

    Because the Jews and the anti-nazis were armed as we are here in the US in some alternate universe and their resistance failed? History only tells one tale. Regarding the holocaust, it is a sad and sober one and something to learn from if nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard4566 View Post
    a better analogy would be the way the nazi's used propaganda. they too used posters filled with misinformation to deceive the german public. posters that said Jews were like rodents. I suppose if one called them on the inaccuracy of it, they would have been told it was merely semantics.
    Oh come on.

    Is there any truth to the claim? Are Jews at all like rodents? Even a little bit? No one but a brain dead lemming could assume Jews were anything less then human, your comparison fails. It's also gross and dishonest.

    That is not the kind of stretch in details that is happening here and you know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard4566 View Post
    I am not saying you can't be on guard against a government disarming civil populations. I don't think it is a rational fear, but that is merely my opinion. But to justify the fear with analogy to what the Nazi's did is just incorrect.
    Then you miss the forest for the trees. You fail history (and Hitler certainly isn't alone, there are many like him and history tells the same sad tale).

    You apparently know much of it and yet fail to learn from it. What about your Bible Richard? Do you believe what God says about mankind and our condition?

    You're playing semantics on an issue that is very straight forward. Your knitpicking on details. Granted, you're correct on some of the semantics, yes, there are some minor detail problems.

    But you use this to attempt to discredit the common sense message being presented here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyK View Post
    Based on what?

    Because the Jews and the anti-nazis were armed as we are here in the US in some alternate universe and their resistance failed? History only tells one tale. Regarding the holocaust, it is a sad and sober one and something to learn from if nothing else.



    Oh come on.

    Is there any truth to the claim? Are Jews at all like rodents? Even a little bit? No one but a brain dead lemming could assume Jews were anything less then human, your comparison fails. It's also gross and dishonest.

    That is not the kind of stretch in details that is happening here and you know it.



    Then you miss the forest for the trees. You fail history (and Hitler certainly isn't alone, there are many like him and history tells the same sad tale).

    You apparently know much of it and yet fail to learn from it. What about your Bible Richard? Do you believe what God says about mankind and our condition?

    You're playing semantics on an issue that is very straight forward. Your knitpicking on details. Granted, you're correct on some of the semantics, yes, there are some minor detail problems.

    But you use this to attempt to discredit the common sense message being presented here.
    Regarding my comment on the nazi propaganda: I think you misunderstood what I was attempting to say. Let me try again, more directly. The nazi's spread falsehoods through propaganda. Similarly, (albeit stretched) there is a lot of propaganda with misinformation being spread now. One side wants to look at the nazi history and draw comparison with respect to gun control, I think it is also appropriate to draw the comparison with regard to the use of false propaganda. However, I know I am not a nazi, and I know you and gun rights people aren't either, so its probably best to not draw either comparison just out of good taste.

    You asked about my Bible. I believe everything in it, it is God's truth that He has given to us. These little pictures with sayings on them are not accurate though. Who makes them? You guys should return some of them and ask for your money back.


    I don't feel like I am nitpicking on details on this. The nazis either used gun control or they didn't. If they did, then perhaps there is a lesson for us today. If they didn't, then there still are lessons, just not the same ones. I believe in learning from history, but i don't think the history should come in the form of little internet pictures with words on them.

    i just looked at the calendar, it is getting close to Christmas, merry Christmas to you. I think I will take a break, don't want to argue, or even politely debate anymore for a few days, take care.

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    Default Memes Are People Too

    Propaganda or evolving life form? Behold, the wisdom of RichardDawkins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePenguin View Post
    My question, which I asked in the other gun control thread, is why do only police officers get to use guns? For goodness' sake if we're going to have police officers in schools why not instead just let teachers carry? Police officers are regular American citizens just like those teachers. They have families and jobs just like those teachers do. The Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms so why don't we let teachers exercise that right? What makes a police officer any different? Some might answer "training" but the only thing you need to teach someone to defeat evil is how to be safe about it and how to aim.

    This is already being done in a county in Texas (it's been there since 2007). Why can't this be adopted nationwide?

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18...xas-officials/

    Lawmakers and educators in Texas say the way to guard against school shootings like last Friday's at a Connecticut elementary school is to make sure teachers can shoot back.

    While the rampage that left 20 young children and six adults dead in a small Northeastern community has sparked a national debate on gun control, assault weapons and a culture of violence, David Thweatt, superintendent of the 103-student Harrold Independent School District in Wilbarger County, said his teachers are armed and ready to protect their young charges.

    "As educators, we don’t have to be police officers and learn about Miranda Rights and related procedures. We just have to be accurate.”

    - David Thweatt, superintendent of Harrold Independent School District in Texas

    “We give our ‘Guardians’ training in addition to the regular Texas conceal-and-carry training,” Thweatt, whose school is about three hours northwest of Dallas, told FoxNews.com. “It mainly entails improving accuracy…You know, as educators, we don’t have to be police officers and learn about Miranda Rights and related procedures. We just have to be accurate.”

    Thweatt is the architect of “The Guardian Plan,” a blueprint for arming school staff, including teachers, that may be catching on, at least in the Lone Star state. Teachers there are allowed to have weapons in the classroom, as Thweatt's faculty members do, but State Attorney General Greg Abbott suggested Monday that lawmakers may consider ways to encourage the practice statewide.

    "Bearing arms whether by teachers and guards and things like that will be all a part of more comprehensive policy issues for the legislature to take up in the coming weeks," Abbott said. "And you can be assured in the aftermath of what happened in Connecticut that these legislators care dearly about the lives of students at their schools and they will evaluate all possible measures that are necessary to protect those lives," he said.

    More momentum for the idea is evidenced by Austin gun shop dealer Crocket Keller, who announced his store will now extend the same discount on firearm purchases to teachers as it does to veterans.

    Thweatt said there have been no incidents since October 2007, when his district adopted the plan giving an unspecified number of teachers and school staff -- dubbed "Guardians" -- authority to carry concealed weapons on school premises. Participating staff are anonymous and known only to Thweatt and the school board, which must approve each application for an employee to become a Guardian. They receive a small stipend annually.

    “We’re 18 miles and 30 minutes from the nearest police station," Thweatt said. "So we are our first responders. If something happened here, we would have to protect our children. You know, police officers are true, everyday heroes in my book, but one of them once told me something very revealing. He said, ‘Ninety-five percent of the time, we get to the scene late.’ I can’t afford to let that happen.”

    Each Guardian must obtain a Texas conceal-and-carry permit, and must lock-and-load their weapons with “frangible” bullets that break apart when colliding with a target. “They go through people,” assured Thweatt.

    “They’re very similar to what the air marshals use. The bullets are glued together with polymers, and we insist upon them because we don’t want the bullet to ricochet off a wall after it’s fired and hit a child.”

    Thweatt says parents have embraced The Guardian Plan, a fact evidenced by the transfer rate into his school district. “We’re a high-transfer district,” he told FoxNews.com, “which means only 18 percent of students come to the school because they live in the district. The rest transfer in or choose to come here from other districts.”

    There’s a simple thread, Thweatt says, that binds together many of the mass shootings that have recently rocked the U.S.: They happened in places where the shooter knew there was going to be little resistance.

    “These shooters, even though they are evil and have mental problems, they inevitably know where they are going,” explained Thweatt. “They are going where they won’t get any resistance. Let’s put it this way, would you put a sign in front of your house that says, ‘I am against guns. You will find no resistance here?’ That would be a stupid thing to do. You’re going to invite people who like to take advantage of helpless individuals.

    “Would my policy have stopped this?” Thweatt asked. “Nobody knows for sure or for 100 percent, but what we do know is that active shooters go where there is no one there to resist. The Guardian Plan addresses that fact.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard4566 View Post
    One side wants to look at the nazi history and draw comparison with respect to gun control, I think it is also appropriate to draw the comparison with regard to the use of false propaganda.
    By comparing an off date and a mishandle on an indirect quote of hitler regarding arms control... to the hateful nazi propaganda against Jews?

    I get what you're saying now but that's a bit in bad taste, don't you think? You're the one that made that leap there. Not anyone here defending our second amendment rights.

    We aren't dealing propaganda here. We do our level best to deal in the truth. I went through the trouble of looking into your claims and clarifying on the points you raised. You are correct in some of the semantics and I posted several corrections.

    Feel free to read into them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard4566 View Post
    i just looked at the calendar, it is getting close to Christmas, merry Christmas to you. I think I will take a break, don't want to argue, or even politely debate anymore for a few days, take care.
    And a Merry Christmas to you and yours Richard. May our God bless and keep you and your house. Take it easy.

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    http://www.thestate.com/2012/12/22/2...artanburg.html


    SPARTANBURG, S.C. — A Spartanburg County school district plans to post an off-duty deputy at each of its 10 elementary schools when students return in January.

    The Herald-Journal of Spartanburg reports ( http://bit.ly/YxYKVR) that Spartanburg 6 authorities are reacting to the Dec. 14 massacre at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn, where a gunman killed 20 children and six adults.

    Superintendent Darryl Owings says he called Sheriff Chuck Wright to arrange for the increased security within hours of the shooting.

    Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2012/12/22/2...#storylink=cpy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard4566 View Post
    .... uses disinformation like ...
    ...gun show loopholes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard4566 View Post
    Regarding my comment on the nazi propaganda: I think you misunderstood what I was attempting to say. Let me try again, more directly. The nazi's spread falsehoods through propaganda. Similarly, (albeit stretched) there is a lot of propaganda with misinformation being spread now. One side wants to look at the nazi history and draw comparison with respect to gun control, I think it is also appropriate to draw the comparison with regard to the use of false propaganda. However, I know I am not a nazi, and I know you and gun rights people aren't either, so its probably best to not draw either comparison just out of good taste.
    True history is not propaganda; they are events not to be repeated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard4566 View Post
    These little pictures with sayings on them are not accurate though. Who makes them? You guys should return some of them and ask for your money back.
    Getting to you isn't it? That means it's working.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard4566 View Post
    I don't feel like I am nitpicking on details on this. The nazis either used gun control or they didn't. If they did, then perhaps there is a lesson for us today. If they didn't, then there still are lessons, just not the same ones. I believe in learning from history, but i don't think the history should come in the form of little internet pictures with words on them.
    Marxists use gun control before taking over a gullible society; Hitler used it, Stalin, Mussolini, etc..
    The little pictures with words became popular in newspapers, then magazines, and now the internet which has become nothing but little pictures, video, and words; and now we have cell phone gadgets with more little pictures with words, quite a trend going on here.



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    Quote Originally Posted by JoyJoyJoy View Post
    http://www.thestate.com/2012/12/22/2...artanburg.html


    SPARTANBURG, S.C. — A Spartanburg County school district plans to post an off-duty deputy at each of its 10 elementary schools when students return in January.

    The Herald-Journal of Spartanburg reports ( http://bit.ly/YxYKVR) that Spartanburg 6 authorities are reacting to the Dec. 14 massacre at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn, where a gunman killed 20 children and six adults.

    Superintendent Darryl Owings says he called Sheriff Chuck Wright to arrange for the increased security within hours of the shooting.

    Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2012/12/22/2...#storylink=cpy

    It's a good start. I honestly don't think that one deputy is enough. I like the idea of several secret, hand-picked and trained teachers better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shonsu View Post
    It's a good start. I honestly don't think that one deputy is enough. I like the idea of several secret, hand-picked and trained teachers better.
    Again, Texas seems to be the state with the most common sense, practical approaches, and respect for the constitution. I am starting to think that land is going to be hard to purchase in Texas very soon and that their population is going to skyrocket.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigMoose View Post
    Again, Texas seems to be the state with the most common sense, practical approaches, and respect for the constitution. I am starting to think that land is going to be hard to purchase in Texas very soon and that their population is going to skyrocket.
    Yep, we have guns and God down here. didn't vote Him out.



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    You know a school could declare they were going to an approved carry plan.

    When in fact, perhaps only 3 teachers may even qualify to carry, yet may only have a gun in their personal vehicle if at all.

    Shooters will never know, but even the image of an existing protection system will discourage them.

    I expect rural schools will be much more in favor of such programs as any serious police response is too many precious minutes away.
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    I'm all in favor of armed OFFICERS in these places, not armed laypeople who aren't highly trained for these situations.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "highly trained". My civilian family members who own guns are just as competent in weapons handling as my Sheriff's Deputy niece and nephew. In fact, with their help & advice I'm about to enter the realm of handgun ownership myself.

    School districts are already squawking about the expense of hiring cops or ex-military so this forces us to go to "plan B" : properly evaluated and trained school employees who volunteer for this duty. These people could be the only thing standing between a madman and a classroom of 5 yr olds. With access to a gun they would have more chance of taking down the nut than an unarmed employee.

    The only expense to the school would be the purchase of the weapon and training courses for the volunteers.

    It's simply common sense.

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    I like the idea of a police officer in every school, but I do not know how we pay for it, we have no money. I like the idea of a arming a select few teachers in each school.
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    Tsk tsk

    Quote Originally Posted by NoProvision View Post
    Fish in a barrel and there's blood in the water. That liberal mindset we've had educated into us over the past several decades is swooping in to save the day and besmirch the memory of these 26 souls in order to promote their personal agenda.

    Hollywood's finest are all over youtube adds with impassioned pleas for "reason" and, it reasons, freedom for all gun toting criminals.
    And yet most of them live in gated communities, have armed private guards, and send their children to schools that are secure as well. For me, until they live like their 'adoring' public, they can shut up and act!!!
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    [QUOTE=Iruntherace4Him;2340087]The guy talks about evil men being monsters and how we protect everyone else in society against them with armed guards, except our most vulnerable, our children.
    But how do we get the legislation passed to have an armed guard at every school in America under this administration? It will never happen under Obama.[/QUOTE]

    This is a state issue, not a federal issue. IMO the states must keep the feds out of it. If the state or even individual school districts want to decide then that is how it should be done. Maybe even school by school and parents can decide if they want their children at schools with armed protection or not. I am more for allowing (voluntary basis only) weapons-qualified teachers and administrators to carry weapons at school than having professional armed guards. though in the larger metro-area schools these type guards may be necessary. We have to keep in mind that if a teacher is carrying a weapon he/she must be physically able to keep it and not be easily overpowered by one or more unruley teenage students. Further, IMO the weapon must be on the teacher's person and not in a briefcase, purse, etc. A mix of concealed and open carry would be good I think.
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    Many teachers are not prepared to carry weapons. I suspect most in My area are not able, simply because generally, teachers are trained and oriented to nurture.


    Training makes every bit of difference between a civilian and a police officer/deputy. (no doubt there are a few Barney Fifes out there)

    From the basics of drawing a pistol - without shooting yourself, ( a training video made this quite evident - even experienced people need to practice)

    Target identification - engagement, using cover, dealing with hostages, the requirements of law - announcing your intent,

    Proper disengagement, staying on the phone if 911 is called,

    Not being mistaken as the shooter (in many cases the shooter looks like a cop where a teacher looks like ordinary person,

    Simply being able to pull the trigger ( I know a few who just don't have it and choking during a fire fight gets friendlies killed)

    And as for hitting the target - you gotta get close and the shooter is likely moving. Miss and a friendly gets hit......



    I pray our leadership is seriously going through the arguments.
    There is no simple solution, but perhaps the end result of safety for our kids,
    protection of responsible gun ownership as well as protection of police and responders,
    denial of access to any firearm for those who forfeited the privilege or have great potential for violence,

    will be the result of wise action.

    For those with a picture of the future, this may be another step on the way to all weapons turned into plowshares.

    But for 7 years, there will be a group who looks back and says: What were we thinking?
    It's ALL about Jesus. The Son of God - Emanuel - The Mighty God - Our Salvation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzardhut View Post
    Not only do they think twice they wind up shooting themselves before more people are harmed.
    In fact, there is evidence to support Buzz's assertion. In most mass shootings, the gunman stops (usually by turning the gun on himself) when police or other armed authorities begin to pose a threat.

    I will try to find the evidence link and post it...

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