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Thread: Some teach that Pre-tribbers are misleading us

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve93138 View Post
    There is tribulation and there is wrath. They are two different things. I want to believe in a pre-trib view and did for many years, but after looking into this further, I'm not so sure. I know Jesus won't beat his bride, but he wouldn't be doing that if there is tribulation - that would be the world beating the bride. God will take us away and then begin the outpouring of his wrath. Pre-wrath is what I'm getting at and I know this is a pre-trib board so I will probably have to go into that other forum here to discuss it... Pre-wrath is a hard pill to swallow and if this view turns out to be incorrect, then Amen, rescue me from man's tribulation.
    Anything other than Pre-Trib and requiring us to be purified by the Trib is the real Hard pill to swallow.

    Because when a Christian states that we as Christians need further purifying they are stating Christ's Sacrifice wasn't enough and we must endure God's Wrath to be worthy is pure Blasphemy in my view.

    Outside of Jesus Christ's Death and His shed Blood there is nothing else we could never ever do to ever make ourselves acceptable in God's Eyes and worthy to enter Heaven.

    Christ said it and paid it in full!

    John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
    John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.Matthew 5:23-24 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

  2. #42
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    I agree with all of you. We do not need further purification by enduring God's wrath. His work is indeed finished. Amen!

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by waiting1 View Post
    It's like the post tribbers ears are closed.

    Because there is "One Thing" they cannot reconcile.

    Here it is: Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    If we are Raptured at the end of the Tribulation there would be no one left who could repopulate Earth during the Millenium.

    This is correct!
    Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
    Coming again coming again maybe morning maybe noon maybe evening and maybe soon!
    Coming again coming again O what a wonderful day it will be! Jesus is coming again!

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve93138 View Post
    I agree with all of you. We do not need further purification by enduring God's wrath. His work is indeed finished. Amen!
    Quit sidestepping. The first half of the trib is also controlled by God, so you do envision Jesus as a wife beater, and also a God that doesn't keep His word. He teaches an imminent rapture, you teach a rapture that can be predicted. There's a problem there that you cannot get around.

    Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theophorus View Post
    I'm pre wrath myself, since the first portion of the tribulation is not God's wrath.
    Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    The so-called "Pre-wrath" Rapture theory is based on a lot of errors. It isn't Biblically sound.

    The Rapture will occur before the start of the 7-year Tribulation period.

    It's true that the Rapture occurs before God's wrath is poured out in the book of Revelation. But -

    The Bible says "tribulation" & God's "wrath" occur during both the first and last halves of the 7-yr. Tribulation period (Daniel's 70th week)

    So the true "pre-wrath rapture" view IS the Pre-Trib Rapture view, because God's wrath begins to be poured out at the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation.

    The last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week are called "The Great Tribulation." (See Matthew 24:15-21.)

    Therefore some say it's wrong to refer to the whole 7 years as "the Tribulation period." They think "tribulation" and the pouring out of "God's wrath" are restricted to the last 3 1/2 years. People who accept the so-called "pre-wrath rapture" theory often say this.

    But the Bible says that both "tribulation" and the pouring out of God's "wrath" happen in the first half of the 7 years as well as in the last half.

    Here are quotes from a paper by Dr. Thomas Ice:

    Rosenthal [an advocate of the so-called pre-wrath rapture theory] made the following statement: "The Greek word thlipsis, translated tribulation or affliction in many English Bibles, occurs twenty times in the New Testament" (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 103).

    My concordance showed that it actually occurs 45 times. Why had he not even considered over half of the New Testament references?

    The point that Rosenthal was attempting to make when he committed such a glaring factual error was that the word "tribulation" is never used to refer to the first half of Daniel's 70th week (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 103-08).

    This is not the case since Matthew 24:9 is an instance where "tribulation" (kjv = "afflicted") refers to the first half of Daniel's 70th week.

    Dr. John McLean explains:

    Rosenthal has not only overstated his case but has stated as true fact that which is clearly false.

    A cursory reading of a Greek concordance reveals that the word "tribulation" (thlipsis) is used in prophetic contexts to refer to both the first and second halves of the seventieth week of Daniel.

    Matthew 24:9, which chronologically relates to the first half of the seventieth week as evidenced by its preceding the midpoint of the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15-21) states: "Then they will deliver you to tribulation (thlipsis), and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name" (nasb).

    Clearly the biblical text describes the first half of the seventieth week as a time of tribulation.

    http://www.raptureready.com/featured...ureTheory.html

    The so-called pre-wrath rapture theory also tries to say that the "wrath" of God isn't poured out until the latter part of the 7 years. They try to argue that there's no wrath of God poured out in the first half of the 7 years. Wrong again.

    Another quote from Dr. Ice's paper:

    God's Wrath

    Van Kampen [an advocate of the so-called pre-wrath rapture theory] defines only the final quarter of Daniel's 70th week as the only time of God's wrath. He sees the first three quarters as the wrath of man and Satan. But does the Bible make such distinctions? It does not!

    Wrath in Zephaniah

    Zephaniah 1:14-18 heaps together a cluster of terms that characterize the future Day of the Lord. Verse 14 labels this time as "the great day of the Lord" and "the day of the Lord." Then verse 15-18 describe this time with the following descriptions: "that day is a day of wrath," "a day of trouble and distress," "a day of wasteness and desolation," "a day of darkness and gloominess," "a day of clouds and thick darkness," "a day of the trumpet and alarm," "I will bring distress upon men," and "the day of the Lord's wrath." The context supports the notion that all these descriptives apply to the Day of the Lord. Such biblical usage does not allow an interpreter to chop the Day of the Lord into compartmental segments as Van Kampen insists. The text plainly says that the Day of the Lord is a time of both tribulation and God's wrath. All of the many descriptives in this passage provide a characterization of the Day of the Lord that applies to the entire seven-year period. The Zephaniah passage clearly contradicts the basis upon which Van Kampen attempts to build his recently developed theory. Zephaniah is not alone in providing an obstacle to the Van Kampen speculation.

    Wrath in Revelation

    Revelation 6:1-17 records the six seal judgments, which are the first reported judgments of the tribulation. Revelation 6 and the seal judgments also contradict the Van Kampen formulation since the Bible describes all six judgments as ". . . the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come . . ." (Rev. 6:16c-17a). Even though Van Kampen cannot recognize God's wrath, the unbelievers at the beginning of the seven-year tribulation will be able to. Revelation 5 reveals that only the Lamb (Christ) was qualified to open the seals that would begin the first judgments of the tribulation. As we connect the dots of Revelation 5 and 6, there is no basis for saying that the events of the seal judgments are somehow disconnected from Scripture's characterization as God's wrath. The following observations about the seal judgments support such a connection:

    • The Lamb is the Individual Who breaks, and thus initiates, all six of the seals (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12) clearly indicating that He (God) is the source of the events or wrath. These are explicit references to the wrath of God, not the wrath of man or Satan as taught by Van Kampen.

    • One quarter of the earth's population is killed (Rev. 6:8).

    • The fifth seal reveals that multitudes of Christian martyrs are slain as a result of seal activity, which has to be considered the wrath of the Lamb. God allows this to occur when the Lamb breaks the seal in this part of the seal judgments.

    • At the end of the six seal judgments an assessment is given as follows: "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:16-17). "Him that sitteth on the throne" is God the Father as indicated in chapter 4, thus it is clearly God's wrath. It is also the Lamb's wrath (Christ). The passage clearly says "the great day of his wrath is come," meaning that all six of the seal judgments are classified as God's wrath.

    Van Kampen attempts to say that the events of the seal judgments are not really "God's" wrath, but the wrath of man. Rosenthal declares, "The word wrath occurs eight times in the book of Revelation. All eight occurrences follow the opening of the sixth seal. The word wrath is never used in connection with the first five seals" (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 176).

    Rosenthal neglects to tell his readers that Revelation 6:16-17 is a summary statement of all the previous seal judgments. In spite of the Van Kampen claim to follow the plain interpretation of the text (Van Kampen, Rapture Question, p. 23-24.), I believe that Revelation 6:16-17 relates to all six seal judgments for the following reasons:

    First, Revelation 6:15-17 is an overall report of the human response to God's judgment as administered through all six seal judgments. A similar evaluation is recorded after the trumpet judgments in Revelation 9:20-21. This argues in favor of associating this report with the preceding seal judgments.

    Second, the controlling verb in verse 17, "is come" (lthen), "is aorist indicative, referring to a previous arrival of the wrath, not something that is about to take place"[2] Rosenthal's attempt to say that this verb is a future aorist (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 166-67), cannot be supported by the context. Such contextual support is necessary to adopt his unusual use of the aorist indicative. Further, if a future look were intended by the verb then John most likely would have used the future tense. Such stress and strain in biblical interpretation demonstrates the forced notion that Van Kampen's new invention is not the product of sound biblical exegesis.

    Third, Revelation 5 narrates a heavenly scene of Christ pictured as a slain, but victorious Lamb. The Lamb is pictured as worthy to open the seals on a scroll, which result in judgment-the judgment described in the succeeding chapter as the seal judgments. In chapter 6, each one of the seal judgments commences as a result of the Lamb's breaking of each seal (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12). Since all six seal judgments begin the same way, with the breaking of the seal by the Lamb, one should not be at all surprised that Revelation 6:16-17 summarizes all six judgments as "the wrath of the Lamb," and "the great day of his wrath." This cannot be the wrath of man or Satan.

    The above information provides ample biblical proof that all six seal judgments are the wrath of God (Lamb).

    Since all six seal judgments are designated in Scripture as God's wrath it means that the entire 70th week of Daniel is called the wrath of God in Revelation 6.

    Therefore, this passage does not support the Van Kampen interpretation. Since the church is promised deliverance from the wrath of God (Rom. 5:9, 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9, and Rev. 3:10), it is clear in light of Revelation 6 that the church will be raptured before the seventieth week of Daniel.

    http://www.raptureready.com/who/Robert_Van_Kampen.html

    Don't be deceived by the so-called "pre-wrath" rapture theory. For good Pre-Trib rapture resources, go to:
    http://www.pre-trib.org


    Here's an excellent verse-by-verse series by Dr. Robert Dean on the book of Revelation.
    You can look up any verse in Revelation that you've been told supports the so-called Pre-Wrath Rapture, and find out what that verse really means.
    Free audio: http://deanbible.org/andromeda.php?q...4+-+Revelation
    Free notes: http://www.divineviewpoint.com/sane/dbm/Revelation.html
    (These notes are detailed but aren't exact word-for-word transcripts, so listen to the audio to get the full version.)


    Here’s more info about problems with the so-called pre-wrath rapture theory:

    The Pre-Wrath Rapture View
    by Dr. Renald Showers of Friends of Israel
    http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/_P.../BP4W0304A.pdf

    An Analysis of the Use of Cosmic-Sign Passages by Proponents of the Pre-Wrath Rapture Theory
    by Dr. Mike Stallard
    http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/vie...rapture-theory

    Is the Pre-Trib Rapture a Satanic Deception?
    by Dr. Thomas Ice
    http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...ibRapturea.pdf

  6. #46
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    Prewrath is midtrib in disguise.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve93138 View Post
    I agree with all of you. We do not need further purification by enduring God's wrath. His work is indeed finished. Amen!
    The Holy Spirit purifies us through the shed blood of Christ so pain and suffering on our part does not contribute and is null and void from justification.

    [15] No promotion of Mid, Post Tribulation, Prewrath, Partial Rapture, Preterism, or Replacement theology.
    Rapture Ready is a traditional Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Pre 7 Seals, Pre 70th week, and Pre-Millennial Dispensational of End Times Prophecy.
    We believe in a literal 7 year Tribulation period, after the instantaneous Rapture of all regenerated believers in unison, during which God finishes His discipline of Israel, protects Israel, and finalizes His judgments on the unbelieving world. Salvation will remain open to people trusting in Jesus for salvation up to the Second Coming.



    Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" so come LORD Jesus !
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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepWatching View Post
    Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    The so-called "Pre-wrath" Rapture theory is based on a lot of errors. It isn't Biblically sound.

    The Rapture will occur before the start of the 7-year Tribulation period.

    It's true that the Rapture occurs before God's wrath is poured out in the book of Revelation. But -

    The Bible says "tribulation" & God's "wrath" occur during both the first and last halves of the 7-yr. Tribulation period (Daniel's 70th week)

    So the true "pre-wrath rapture" view IS the Pre-Trib Rapture view, because God's wrath begins to be poured out at the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation.
    Amen! Thanks for posting these articles, KeepWatching!

    I especially appreciated the following excerpt:


    First, Revelation 6:15-17 is an overall report of the human response to God's judgment as administered through all six seal judgments. A similar evaluation is recorded after the trumpet judgments in Revelation 9:20-21. This argues in favor of associating this report with the preceding seal judgments.

    Second, the controlling verb in verse 17, "is come" (lthen), "is aorist indicative, referring to a previous arrival of the wrath, not something that is about to take place"[2] Rosenthal's attempt to say that this verb is a future aorist (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 166-67), cannot be supported by the context. Such contextual support is necessary to adopt his unusual use of the aorist indicative. Further, if a future look were intended by the verb then John most likely would have used the future tense. Such stress and strain in biblical interpretation demonstrates the forced notion that Van Kampen's new invention is not the product of sound biblical exegesis.
    Amen!

  8. #48
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    Wrong, Wrong, Wrong...

    The Wrath of God doesn't start with the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation -- it occurs before the start of the 7-year Tribulation.

    First a little background:
    The Wrath of God that the Bride is Promised to be kept out of is described in:

    1 Thess 1:10 even Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath (orgēn SG#3709) to come
    1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath (orgēn SG#3709), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ
    This is exactly the same Wrath (orgēn SG#3709) that is declared to have already come in Rev 6:17.

    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath (orgēn SG#3709) is come; and who shall be able to stand?
    Main Point:
    This same Wrath (orgēn SG#3709) is described as coming in Zep 2:2-3.

    Zep 2:2 (LXX) before ye become as the flower that passes away, before the anger (orgēn SG#3709) of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the wrath (thymou) of the Lord come upon you. 3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth; do judgment, and seek justice, and answer accordingly; that ye may be hid in the day of the wrath (orgēs SG#3709) of the Lord.
    So the Lord's Wrath is declared to occur in Zep 2 which is the judgments on Moab, Ammon, Philistines, Assur, et al which are all of Ps 83 fame.

    Zep 2:3 even talks of the meek of the earth being hidden on the Day of the Lord's Wrath (orgēs SG#3709).

    Therefore:
    Therefore 100% the Bride MUST be absent from the areas that the Lord's Wrath is falling upon.
    There can be ZERO of the Bride left in any of the areas that the Lord's Wrath falls upon.
    Evacuation, Extermination, or Rapture seem to be the only options.

    This is why I am Pre-Flood, Pre-Furnace, and Pre-Fierce Anger (Zep 2:2 KJV) (which of course includes Pre-Trib).

    Remember that the Septuagint (LXX) was written in Greek within just a couple hundred years of Paul's Greek writings.
    SG# means Strongs Greek word number.

    (PS: I do completely agree with KeepWatching and acceptedintheBeloved
    Especially in that Rev 6:17 is describing that the Lord's Wrath has already come and not something that is happening in the future.
    Except the part wherein "fifth seal reveals that multitudes of Christian martyrs are slain as a result of seal activity,". These will NOT be Christian martyrs. These will be Tribulation Saint martyrs. All Christians will be with the Lord at this point.)

  9. #49
    Not Perfect, But Forgiven Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by waiting1 View Post
    Anything other than Pre-Trib and requiring us to be purified by the Trib is the real Hard pill to swallow.

    Because when a Christian states that we as Christians need further purifying they are stating Christ's Sacrifice wasn't enough and we must endure God's Wrath to be worthy is pure Blasphemy in my view.

    Outside of Jesus Christ's Death and His shed Blood there is nothing else we could never ever do to ever make ourselves acceptable in God's Eyes and worthy to enter Heaven.

    Christ said it and paid it in full!

    John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
    Yep. That's it. The post tribulational view is one of works, as if one's worthiness to be Raptured must be proven. There are a couple problems with this:

    1) It renders the finished work of Christ void, as the original intent was to deliver us from, not to, wrath or any simile thereof, such as: "tribulation."

    2) We have nothing we can ever offer God outside of faith in whom He sent.

    3) It makes God a liar. Since God is absolute and eternal, that would make Him, by pure logic, an absolute and eternal liar. Meaning, none of His promises are real, and we are all on par with someone who believes he can speak to paperclips.

    4) We now have no explanations for thousands of years of miraculous events that can only be attributed to said God.

    5) God is absolute, so for Him to lie would actually negate His own existence and destroy all forms of matter and consciousness.

    6) It assumes that while the Restrainer has lifted His restraint, we are still here, in violation of Revelation 4-6 and the better part of the New Testament.

    7) The post tribulation viewpoint is contingent upon Jesus returning at the end of the tribulation. This not only defies the very precedents of deliverance from wrath, or any simile thereof, as set forth by Enoch, Noah, and Ezekiel, but it would make the very Bride of Christ recipients of wrath by proxy! That's as if I told my niece: "Yes, you may have a piece of candy, but you have to reach for it and pray really hard next to this basket of Japanese hornets that I will kick everyday for 7 years. On the last day of the 7th year, I'll give you the candy. And you'd better not cry or else no candy!! God help you if you cry!! There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!

    8) Tribulation believers can lose their salvation by taking the mark. That passage is not inferred, referenced or used to refer to the Bride of Christ at any time, as we are not here to receive the mark.

    9) The tribulation is a 7 year period that is definite. The end of the Church age is contingent on independent variables that are actually constants and known only to our Almighty God but unknown to man. If no one knows the date or the hour of Jesus' return, this simply cannot be referring to any post tribulation Rapture, where I could simply count forward, including leap years, 7 years and figure out to the hour at which Christ will return. Post tribulationists make Jesus out to be a liar and mathematically ignorant.

    10) The post tribulational view is dependent on an angry, non-commital and vengeful God, whose sole purpose is to punish and not redeem without tremendous loss of life and sanity. This is not consistent with Jesus' promise to give us His peace, which is also founded in God's promises that we are redeemed from said wrath, as outlined in Ephesians 1-2. . Jesus bore the wrath of God for US. We are not to bare God's wrath on His behalf, as believers that is. That is a violation of scripture.

    11) So is the entire book of Revelation is to be read in reverse? Do they know something we don't, or is it simply a poor understanding of scripture? Two words here: Accom's Razor. How do you explain all those people who just happen to be at God's throne in Rev. 1-4, including the elders in glorified bodies, who weren't there before? Does the new Jerusalem then descend at the beginning of the tribulation? Who populates the milienium if we all have glorified bodies at the end of the tribulation? Animals? Plants? This borders on supporting evolution and would nullify the 1,000 year reign of Christ and Satan's final rebellion on a re-populated earth.

    12) As the entire book of Revelation is now to be read in reverse, then logically, the book of Genesis does not exist, as it has not happened yet. Therefore, the most logical conclusion for post tribulation believers is that evolution is true, however causally and mathematically impossible as it may be. By the same post tribulation logic, Jesus has not even been sent yet, and the very birth of Christ is roughly 1600 years in the future.

    Final Conclusion of post-tribulation logic: The entire bible is therefore to be read backwards and without consideration of accuracy. The Bereans were idiots who questioned God and will endure wrath that is yet to come, because the Bereans don't exist yet. Jesus is not born yet, therefore there is no intermediate Heaven, and Abraham's Bosom has yet to be created. Everyone who dies is therefore pretending or were hallucinations all along. God is a liar, and when He realizes this, it will destroy reality. Adam and Eve have not been deceived yet, and we are not sinners, and they do not exist yet to commit the sin that will result in the fall of all mankind. As all came from Adam and Eve, therefore, we do not even exist and cannot be held accountable for sin as mere constructs of potentiality within the mind of an absolute God who must therefore lie absolutely. Satan is therefore vindicated and free of all charges, as he too is mere potentiality. By proxy, the satanic bible is therefore more accurate than any scripture ever written, and the quran could be considered a highly accurate devotional, as any measure of untruth is of infinitely more value than absolute untruth.

    Yeah, I have a huge problem with post-tribulationism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not Perfect, But Forgiven View Post
    Yep. That's it. The post tribulational view is one of works, as if one's worthiness to be Raptured must be proven. There are a couple problems with this:

    1) It renders the finished work of Christ void, as the original intent was to deliver us from, not to, wrath or any simile thereof, such as: "tribulation."

    2) We have nothing we can ever offer God outside of faith in whom He sent.

    3) It makes God a liar. Since God is absolute and eternal, that would make Him, by pure logic, an absolute and eternal liar. Meaning, none of His promises are real, and we are all on par with someone who believes he can speak to paperclips.
    Religions of good works are designed by satan to lure man into a false salvation.



    Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" so come LORD Jesus !
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    It all comes down to the wooden cross and forsaking the world. It's Jesus or drugs, Jesus or money, Jesus or power, Jesus or family, Jesus or self. Luke 9:62.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbrian40 View Post
    It all comes down to the wooden cross and forsaking the world. It's Jesus or drugs, Jesus or money, Jesus or power, Jesus or family, Jesus or self. Luke 9:62.
    Jesus or religion.



    Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" so come LORD Jesus !
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    Quote Originally Posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post
    Amen! Thanks for posting these articles, KeepWatching!

    I especially appreciated the following excerpt:

    First, Revelation 6:15-17 is an overall report of the human response to God's judgment as administered through all six seal judgments. A similar evaluation is recorded after the trumpet judgments in Revelation 9:20-21. This argues in favor of associating this report with the preceding seal judgments.

    Second, the controlling verb in verse 17, "is come" (lthen), "is aorist indicative, referring to a previous arrival of the wrath, not something that is about to take place"[2] Rosenthal's attempt to say that this verb is a future aorist (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 166-67), cannot be supported by the context. Such contextual support is necessary to adopt his unusual use of the aorist indicative. Further, if a future look were intended by the verb then John most likely would have used the future tense. Such stress and strain in biblical interpretation demonstrates the forced notion that Van Kampen's new invention is not the product of sound biblical exegesis.

    AitB, thanks for highlighting that key part of the Dr. Ice quote! It's a long quote and it would've helped if I'd highlighted the main points. (Unfortunately it's too late for me to edit my post )

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    I used to be pre trib but am unsure now, pre wrath teachers make excellent points as well. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to post any of them here.

    Whatever happened to "rapture doctrine discussion"? I remember it was another sub forum here but has disappeared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzardhut View Post
    Jesus or religion.
    Yes, exactly!!!!! Great answer! This discussion has been wonderful and SO helpful!
    1 Thessalonians 5:4 (New International Version)

    4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzardhut View Post
    Jesus or religion.
    This scripture says it all John 14:6.
    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Love RR Family, Janice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theophorus View Post
    I used to be pre trib but am unsure now, pre wrath teachers make excellent points as well. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to post any of them here.

    Whatever happened to "rapture doctrine discussion"? I remember it was another sub forum here but has disappeared.
    There is plenty of proof on this thread to leave no doubt, unless one does not want to see it.
    There is simply no reason to "discuss" this topic any further. Please believe me, I am not trying to be rude.

    My advice is (if you are truly serious) to please pray for The Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the truth, sincerely. He WILL help you if you ask.
    After praying, then carefully reread this thread. Think deeply about the evidence given and you will see that pre-trib is a fact.

    This thread is filled with love for the Lord, and with brothers and sisters who care about you.

    While we do love and care for you, truly, we simply will not allow ourselves to be "bogged down" forever on a settled issue. Beating a dead dog is never helpful, and always leads to hurt feelings. I know I sure don't want to hurt your feelings. You will get heartfelt honesty here, but there are plenty of websites where you can engage in endless debates if that is your desire.

    I pray that you take my advice because you are being robbed of the joy that comes from looking up in anticipation of your Blessed Hope. The catching up is the consummation of our Salvation!!! It is the glorious, exciting event the church has been waiting for for over two thousand years. We have been sealed with His Holy Spirit to "keep" us until "The Day" arrives.

    There were people in the Apostle Paul's day circulating false letters supposed to be from Paul and his fellows. These letters were stating that the church would go through the Tribulation (in fact that they already were in the Tribulation). Paul told them not to believe it, then he told them to comfort each other with his words.

    Also those who eagerly await Him receive a special crown!

    2 Timothy:4:8 2 Timothy 4:8 (King James Version)

    Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Don't allow anyone to take this special crown from you! It will be a JOY to lay this crown at His Precious Feet!

    At any rate, I'll see you at the rapture, and I will jump for joy if you receive this special crown!
    I stand with Israel, now and forever.
    Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theophorus View Post
    I used to be pre trib but am unsure now, pre wrath teachers make excellent points as well. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to post any of them here.

    Whatever happened to "rapture doctrine discussion"? I remember it was another sub forum here but has disappeared.
    That was before my time here, but as I understand it, there was too much arguing and it was chaotic and unedifying - like the other *Rapture doctrine debate* sites. When the board re-formed, it was decided that allowing other points of view re: the Rapture timing was a mistake for the good of the whole and it was eliminated.

    This was always meant to be a pre-Trib board, an oasis on the Interwebz for pre-Trib believers to enjoy without being attacked for our beliefs and the constant lack of peace.
    "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


    Jesus + something = nothing

    Jesus + nothing = Everything

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepWatching View Post
    AitB, thanks for highlighting that key part of the Dr. Ice quote! It's a long quote and it would've helped if I'd highlighted the main points. (Unfortunately it's too late for me to edit my post )
    I read both the Van Kampen book and Rosenthal's book years ago. Part of what makes them convince a lot of sincere believers is that the content of their books is not ALL error. There is a "transference of expertise" fallacy going on which says in the mind of the reader, "well, because he was right on this, then he is right on that." Just because they were right on some things doesn't mean the entire book is correct. The Pre-Wrath, along with the other non-Pre-Trib views, fail to distinguish between Law and Grace in that they fail to differentiate between the time of Israel and the time of the Church. Israel was under the Law; the Church is not. When you read Revelation, after chapters 1-3 in which the Church figures largely, everything that follows in chapters 4 and beyond has an Old Testament Jewish style, flavor and nature. This is because those chapters (after chapters 2 & 3, the seven Churches) all dealing with ISRAEL, not the Church!

    The images and symbols used are all Old Testament in nature.

    We know the Trib period is 7 years long because it is the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27, part of the Seventy Weeks prophecy given to Daniel concerning the destiny of the city of Jerusalem and the people of Israel. The Church is NOT in view anywhere in that prophecy!

    Then, from Revelation, we find:

    In Chapter 4, the rainbow around God's throne reminds us of the Flood and God's promise He would never again judge the world with water.

    In Chapter 5 Christ is seen as both the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and the Passover Lamb of God.

    Chapter 7 gives us 144,000 sons of Israel of the 12 tribes (though it substitutes the half-tribe of Manasseh for Dan, which had fallen into idolatry.)

    Chapter 11 gives us the Two Witnesses which are none other than the two olive plants of Zech 4:11-14.

    Chapter 12 gives us the symbol of Israel as a woman, and Jesus as the Christ child which came forth out of Israel.

    Chapter 13 repeats O.T. info on the Antichrist in parallel to Daniel chapter 7.

    Chapter 19 uses the Jewish wedding custom to relate the wedding feast of the Lamb.

    People who want to see the Church in the Trib period are possibly unaware of these things. Others may well be stubborn in that they WANT (possibly due to pride) to be found in the Trib period where they can show their quality by how THEY will be over-comers in that time period. Sorry, but that is a fantasy based on sinful pride. The Trib is all about Israel, not the Church.

    Certainly, many among the Gentile nations will also be saved in that time period, but even then, there's a Jewish messianic flavor to that. The saved from among the nations are shown holding palm branches in Rev 7, same as Israel did when it first greeted Jesus rising on the back of a donkey in messianic fulfillment.

    There is more than enough evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Rapture is Pre-Trib. Many, however, resist this because they have built an entire ministry, a whole platform, to promote their viewpoint, and cannot back down because they can't bear the thought that ... they ... were ... wrong. The problem here is not lack of evidence, but rather an abundance of pride. They just can't bear the humiliation, and so stick to their guns.

    In the end, all who have saving faith in Jesus will go in the Pre-Trib Rapture, regardless of whatever other viewpoint to the contrary that they hold.

    We are saved by grace, and we are Raptured by grace.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandra17012 View Post
    There is plenty of proof on this thread to leave no doubt, unless one does not want to see it.
    There is simply no reason to "discuss" this topic any further. Please believe me, I am not trying to be rude.

    My advice is (if you are truly serious) to please pray for The Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the truth, sincerely. He WILL help you if you ask.
    After praying, then carefully reread this thread. Think deeply about the evidence given and you will see that pre-trib is a fact.

    This thread is filled with love for the Lord, and with brothers and sisters who care about you.

    While we do love and care for you, truly, we simply will not allow ourselves to be "bogged down" forever on a settled issue. Beating a dead dog is never helpful, and always leads to hurt feelings. I know I sure don't want to hurt your feelings. You will get heartfelt honesty here, but there are plenty of websites where you can engage in endless debates if that is your desire.

    I pray that you take my advice because you are being robbed of the joy that comes from looking up in anticipation of your Blessed Hope. The catching up is the consummation of our Salvation!!! It is the glorious, exciting event the church has been waiting for for over two thousand years. We have been sealed with His Holy Spirit to "keep" us until "The Day" arrives.

    There were people in the Apostle Paul's day circulating false letters supposed to be from Paul and his fellows. These letters were stating that the church would go through the Tribulation (in fact that they already were in the Tribulation). Paul told them not to believe it, then he told them to comfort each other with his words.

    Also those who eagerly await Him receive a special crown!

    2 Timothy:4:8 2 Timothy 4:8 (King James Version)

    Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Don't allow anyone to take this special crown from you! It will be a JOY to lay this crown at His Precious Feet!

    At any rate, I'll see you at the rapture, and I will jump for joy if you receive this special crown!
    My joy is not in the rapture, it's in Christ as I know yours is too! Whenever the rapture happens it means I see Christ and that's all I care about. I'm not robbed of a single iota of joy when I search for answers and find many sound arguments on a pre wrath rapture. One day I will see Jesus with my own eyes! I worry that if it's pre wrath there are many people who might be deceived because they will not recognize the anti Christ because if it was him they should've been raptured.

    I apologise for side tracking things, I wish the rapture doctrine area was still around so we could still discuss those things(and those who didn't want to could simply avoid it). I pray all of you are right, but I prepare my heart for tribulation(not wrath)

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