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Thread: Interesting alignment in the sky September 23rd, 2017

  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve53 View Post
    This latest "sign" does not fit the sequential Revelation narrative.
    It seems like one could only state that definitively if we insist the "sign" itself (if it is indeed what Rev 12 is referring to) happens precisely in the mid-trib (when the events of mid-trib are occurring), instead of, say, in the first part of the tribulation period (in the event that our Rapture takes place any time between now and Sept [very possible! ]), pointing Israel to things that will be "upcoming" (from the point of view of the first days or months in the trib, in that case). In that case, the "sign" precedes the events [mid-trib events] the sign is pointing toward. At least that's how I'm understanding it.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post
    It seems like one could only state that definitively if we insist the "sign" itself (if it is indeed what Rev 12 is referring to) happens precisely in the mid-trib (when the events of mid-trib are occurring), instead of, say, in the first part of the tribulation period (in the event that our Rapture takes place any time between now and Sept [very possible! ]), pointing Israel to things that will be "upcoming" (from the point of view of the first days or months in the trib, in that case). In that case, the "sign" precedes the events [mid-trib events] the sign is pointing toward. At least that's how I'm understanding it.
    That is basically how I see it, also.
    Isaiah 26:3 You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on You, because he trusts in You.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post
    It seems like one could only state that definitively if we insist the "sign" itself (if it is indeed what Rev 12 is referring to) happens precisely in the mid-trib (when the events of mid-trib are occurring), instead of, say, in the first part of the tribulation period (in the event that our Rapture takes place any time between now and Sept [very possible! ])....
    Again, Revelation is chronological. Proper exegesis demands the text lead us. The "sign" in September can't possibly be the one of Revelation 12 simply because it is (not maybe, if, but) due to occur at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week. We're still here, so, ..... As far as this singular point is concerned let's stop

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve53 View Post
    Again, Revelation is chronological. Proper exegesis demands the text lead us. The "sign" in September can't possibly be the one of Revelation 12 simply because it is (not maybe, if, but) due to occur at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week. We're still here, so, ..... As far as this singular point is concerned let's stop
    I thought that there were certain parts out of order... For example, the Two Witnesses come before the judgments, but I'm in the book information about them comes after the first through sixth Trumpet Judgements. Therefore, is it plausible that Rev. 12 is before the Tribulation?
    "And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
    -Joel 2: 30-32a

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
    I thought that there were certain parts out of order... For example, the Two Witnesses come before the judgments, but I'm in the book information about them comes after the first through sixth Trumpet Judgements. Therefore, is it plausible that Rev. 12 is before the Tribulation?
    No. Parts of Revelation are paranthetical, but the order of the events of Daniel's 70 week are chronological. The ministry of the Two Witnesses overlaps the first and second halves of the Tribulation and they come on the scene before the 7th Trumpet is blown, so the judgments are well under way.

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
    I thought that there were certain parts out of order... For example, the Two Witnesses come before the judgments, but I'm in the book information about them comes after the first through sixth Trumpet Judgements. Therefore, is it plausible that Rev. 12 is before the Tribulation?

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by USCG_Vet View Post

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



  8. #208

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    Something still bothers me about Rev 12. First off, I do not believe this has anything to do with the timing of the rapture. But I'm not convinced that chapter 12 is an overview of the past. What bothers me with the current interpretation is that no one seems to explain why the description of the dragon that is standing before the women parallels that of the one world government. If I'm following the chronological order, the dragon (including the one world government, which is a future event) figuratively speaking; standing before the woman ( Israel / Mary) to devour the male child (Jesus Christ). That world government to come was not in the past, if that makes any sense.

    If I understand the current interpretation correct;

    Rev 12:1* And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:*(a past event? Josephs dream?)
    Rev 12:2* And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.*(Past event, Mary being pregnant with Jesus Christ?)
    Rev 12:3* And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.*(No one seems to address this verse. If 12:1 to 12:5 is an overview of the past, why would John provide a description of the dragon that matches the one world government, which is a future event? Just seems out of place if we conclude this is an overview of the past)
    Rev 12:4* And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.*(Past event, when the rebellion took place? I'm not convinced we have interpreted this verse correctly)
    Rev 12:5* And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.*(Past event, Jesus accession to heaven? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus was not caught up to heaven but exalted himself into the cloud. )
    Rev 12:6* And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.*(no disagreement that this is the remnant of Israel mid trib).

    Maybe Rev 12:1 to 12:6 is a future event that happens mid trib?

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstewart2235 View Post
    Something still bothers me about Rev 12. First off, I do not believe this has anything to do with the timing of the rapture. But I'm not convinced that chapter 12 is an overview of the past. What bothers me with the current interpretation is that no one seems to explain why the description of the dragon that is standing before the women parallels that of the one world government. If I'm following the chronological order, the dragon (including the one world government, which is a future event) figuratively speaking; standing before the woman ( Israel / Mary) to devour the male child (Jesus Christ). That world government to come was not in the past, if that makes any sense.

    If I understand the current interpretation correct;

    Rev 12:1* And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:*(a past event? Josephs dream?)
    Rev 12:2* And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.*(Past event, Mary being pregnant with Jesus Christ?)
    Rev 12:3* And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.*(No one seems to address this verse. If 12:1 to 12:5 is an overview of the past, why would John provide a description of the dragon that matches the one world government, which is a future event? Just seems out of place if we conclude this is an overview of the past)
    Rev 12:4* And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.*(Past event, when the rebellion took place? I'm not convinced we have interpreted this verse correctly)
    Rev 12:5* And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.*(Past event, Jesus accession to heaven? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus was not caught up to heaven but exalted himself into the cloud. )
    Rev 12:6* And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.*(no disagreement that this is the remnant of Israel mid trib).

    Maybe Rev 12:1 to 12:6 is a future event that happens mid trib?
    Regrettably my computer is down and responding from my tablet has serious limitations.....
    In short, Revelation 12 is not a review of the past. Jesus ascended in a cloud and once out of sight, returned to Heaven.

    https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...ion-time-line/

    And from Jack's series on Revelation (the whole series is worth reading):
    Revelation 12

    A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. (Rev. 12:1-2)
    The fact that John identifies her as a sign means the woman’s not real but stands for something else. And the something else is Israel. We get hints of this from Genesis 37:9-10 where Joseph dreams that his family are the sun, the moon and 11 stars, he being the 12th one. And as we’ll see in a moment, this woman is about to give birth to the Messiah, which makes it impossible for her to be the church, as some insist. Jesus gave birth to the Church, not the other way around.
    Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. (Rev. 12:3-6)
    This sign begins a sweeping overview of of Satan’s rebellion against God and his hatred for men who align themselves with Him. He’s seen as the Great Dragon who led a rebellion in Heaven that resulted in 1/3 of the angelic host joining with him. He tried to destroy the Messiah, but God resurrected Him and took Him to Heaven. When they see the Abomination of Desolation, believers in Israel will heed the Messiah’s warning from Matt. 24:15 and escape into the Jordanian desert where He will have prepared a hiding place for them, while He spends 3 1/2 years getting the Earth ready for His return. This 3 1/2 years is known to us as the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21).
    And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. (Rev. 12:7-9)
    Satan’s on the run now. No longer allowed in heaven, he’s been cast to earth as foretold in Isaiah 14:12 and Ezekiel 28:17. Some incorrectly teach that this happened long ago, at Satan’s judgment. But as Job 1:6-7 and Rev. 12:10 below clearly show, Satan’s had access to heaven all along. He was divested of his titles and of his prominent position at his judgment, but until now he’s been allowed to come and go. And when he does, he whispers his accusations against you and me in God’s ear. Whenever I think of this, I take comfort from the fact that our Lord Jesus is whispering in God’s other ear, making intercession for us. (Romans 8:34)
    Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
    “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
    Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” (Rev. 12:10-12) )
    Notice that as the Lord had done in Rev. 3:10 John distinguished between those who dwell in Heaven and the Earth dwellers. It’s not just due to our different physical locations, but is an indication of the state of our hearts. For the Church in Heaven Satan’s impending defeat is greeted with rejoicing, but on Earth it’s a time of great woe because the war’s come home to them. Another hint of the pre-trib rapture.
    The Kingdom that Satan lost at his rebellion and judgment, and that he later stole back from the man to whom it had been given (Adam) has become the battleground for the most incredible contest in history. Spiritual forces on both sides line up unseen behind their human counterparts. They’ll battle to the death for control of Planet Earth. Will the usurper who has put it to the torch and sword, laying waste to the very thing he’s fighting for, finally prevail? Or will the Kinsman Redeemer, whose shed blood has legally redeemed what Adam had lost so long ago, carry the day?
    We’ll soon see, but first there’s one last troublesome detail to handle. Ever since the beginning, Satan has been trying to wipe out every trace of God’s people, for they hold the power to call forth the Redeemer.
    When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:13-17)
    The phrase time, times, and half a time is a way of saying one year, two years and half a year, or 3 1/2 years. It’s the third indication of the length of the coming Great Tribulation we’ve seen. From Rev. 11:2we learned that the Gentiles will trample on the Holy City for 42 months. Then in Rev. 12:6 we saw the woman being taken care of for 1260 days. Now we see this same period of time referred to as 3 1/2 years. Many scholars believe the Lord never abandoned the 360 day calendar He instituted at the Creation. That being the case 42 months, 1260 days and 3 1/2 years are all equivalent periods of time and they all describe the Great Tribulation.
    After His rejection and death, the Lord went back to Heaven, where He had come from. He vowed to stay there until His people acknowledged their sin. He knew that things would have to get pretty rough before they’d humble themselves enough to call Him back, but that eventually they would. This was all foretold in Hosea 5:15-6:2. In the meantime, if Satan can wipe them out, there won’t be anyone left to petition Him.
    And so it’s been. Using the Romans, the Muslims, the Christians, the Spaniards, the Russians, the Germans, the Italians, the English, and now the Muslims again Satan has been obsessed with ridding the world of its Jewry. He knows that if he can accomplish this before they wake up and call on the Name of Jesus, he’s won.
    When he brings Gog and Magog in a sneak attack that will begin Daniel’s 70th Week he will almost succeed, but God will intervene and save them. Astonishingly this will turn them back to Him, although still blinded to their Messiah. Here in Rev. 12:15 Satan’s using a torrent of water, like God had used against Satan’s hybrid warriors 5000 years earlier, but the Earth cooperates with its Creator and swallows up the water. The Jews are safe once again. Furious, Satan turns on the post-Church Gentile believers, known by some as as Tribulation Saints.
    https://gracethrufaith.com/the-book-...ion-1115-1217/

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



  10. #210
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    OK folks, with some reservations, the Mod team allowed this conversation to explore many different points of view and now it seems some folks won't let go of the notion that this September celestial alignment somehow heralds the rapture of the church. It does not.

    We all want the rapture to happen ASAP. It's somewhat natural to be attracted to this and that theory about the nearness of the event, so, we get it completely.

    What we're having a hard time with is understanding why some folks are attracted to the uninspired words and predictions of men when we have God's sure Word to instruct us.

    A proper reading of Revelation explains all there is to know about the celestial signs in the heavens during Daniel's 70th week and who those signs are for.

    Given the fact that the Tribulation hasn't started yet, none of those celestial events described can possibly be "the sign" of Revelation 12 because even if the rapture happened today (don't we wish!) the "sign" is years away.

    Regrettably, this thread is now closed.

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



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