Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 25

Thread: Need help disputing a lie regarding Jews

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    God's bootcamp of faith in NW Arkansas
    Posts
    1,976

    Default Need help disputing a lie regarding Jews

    Hi,

    Before I go to other sources, I thought I would check in here first.

    I have a friend who is a Jew. He got saved and used to love the Lord. I knew from facebook that he still was still partaking in Jewish celebrations and holidays along side his christianity. Well, I guess he has finally bought into the lie that ALL jews will go to heaven because they are the chosen ones. His response to me was "We worship the same God". And he is flat out rejecting Jesus and the NT.

    So, I know the sin argument and what Jesus did. I think what I need are OT verses maybe that show what "chosen" means and that Jews who do not believe are not going to heaven and will go to hell.

    Have any of you argued this point and, if so, I"m open to suggestions. At first this made my heart hurt for him but now I'm angry because I think deep down he knows better. I also realize that it generally means one of two things: Either he never was really saved Or he was saved and is making a conscious choice to deny Jesus. Both end him up in hell. :-(

    Please help if you have dealt with this before. Thank you ahead of time. I do appreciate any input or advice given.
    "Those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint."Isaiah 40:31

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    1,061

    Default

    I don't know any Old Testament verses, but I know the Covenant he thinks will get
    him to heaven slammed shut when Jesus died on the Cross, and the new one opened
    up. The Jews have been set aside since they failed to accept their Messiah when He
    rode into town on a Colt. So, if he believes ANY of the New Testament, proof is easy.

    Hmmmm, Old Testament.

    I do remember something in either Proverbs or Psalms about a way
    which seems right to a man, but the end thereof ...

    And then, there is Psalms 1:5
    Therefore the ungodly will not stand in the Judgement,
    nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

    And I think we can prove that all have sinned.

    It's a start.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    1,140

    Default

    Well we don't worship the "same god" per say

    Christ is God in the Flesh. And Christ Himself said to deny Him was to deny the Father.

    So for your friend you would have to show him that the Mosaic Law was a works system but it still required faith to the coming Messiah.

    Also

    https://www.gotquestions.org/Jews-saved.html
    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Near the end of the earth, Alberta
    Posts
    254

    Default Depends on which Testament you use...

    If your friend wants to use the Old Testament, you are in luck. Paul used exactly the same argument in the letter to the Galatians. The judaizers were luring the Galatian believers into thinking salvation required faith in Jesus PLUS circumcision. Problem is if you add circumcision, you eventually start adding all the other Pharisaic requirements into your worldview and then you are stuck back in to believing you are responsible for your own salvation.

    The reasoning goes like this;
    Galatians 3

    The law came 430 years after a covenant was made with Abraham. The law was an addendum which had it's own terms and could only be fulfilled by Jesus Christ alone (verse 16). This Law did not have any legal impact on the original covenant. So what was the covenant? "Abraham, I'm going to give you a son and because of the lineage of this son, I will bless the world through you." What did Abraham do to receive this covenant? NOTHING!

    He believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. Similarly, what do we have to do to receive salvation? NOTHING! We cannot DO anything sufficient to obtain it. That is why we need a Saviour, a Kinsman-Redeemer, a God-man that could do this on our behalf. So when we believe Jesus is God in human flesh and He has saved us, we then (like is says in Gal 3:7) become sons of Abraham in faith. Notice it does not say we become sons of Issac or Jacob. That is necessary for the lineage of Jews.
    Also notice that the Abrahamic covenant is an eternal one (Gen 17:7). Jews are still required to follow the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic one is dealt with and abrogated. Want proof? Acts 16:3 Paul had Timothy circumcised and Gal 2:3 Titus was not required to be circumcised. WHY? Because Timothy came from Jewish parentage and Titus was a Greek. Paul knew his stuff.

    Finally, there is no problem in partaking in the Jewish feasts and ceremonies if you realize they all point to Jesus. That is where the focus should be. However if he is hoping by doing these ceremonies he will improve his standing in heaven, he will be sadly mistaken. Jesus mentioned multiple times where the religious leaders would be in the place of gnashing of teeth (hell) and the tax collectors and prostitutes would be dining at the table with Abraham and the patriarchs (symbolic of paradise or heaven). See Gal 4:9-10 for Paul's treatment of that.

    I guess you could also do a little background research into how many times God called Israel through the prophets trying to get them to return to Him. My question would be "would those Jews who rebelled against God in the Old Testament go to heaven too?"

    Dr. A. Fruchtenbaum has a great study on Galatians dealing with all of this stuff.
    Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
    Solus Christus - Christ Alone
    Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
    Sola Fide - Faith Alone
    Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Out of the mountains and into the Piedmont
    Posts
    21,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sunshine2777 View Post
    I also realize that it generally means one of two things: Either he never was really saved Or he was saved and is making a conscious choice to deny Jesus. Both end him up in hell. :-(
    A couple things: First, if your friend was saved, he's saved. Period. So if you're of the impression that his conversion was real he's Heaven bound no matter what he does subsequently​.

    Second: Salvation has always been an individual choice. There is no such thing as a "blanket" salvation offered to any groups of people..

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    God's bootcamp of faith in NW Arkansas
    Posts
    1,976

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve53 View Post
    A couple things: First, if your friend was saved, he's saved. Period. So if you're of the impression that his conversion was real he's Heaven bound no matter what he does subsequently​.

    Second: Salvation has always been an individual choice. There is no such thing as a "blanket" salvation offered to any groups of people..
    So you think that if a "saved" person makes a conscious and pointed decision to reject Jesus, His Word and His truth, that He is still saved? I'm sorry but I disagree with you Steve on this one. The bible says that if a person gets the truth then rejects it later, he is in worse shape than as if he had never known the truth. The one unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is His spirit of truth. So if you reject Jesus at any point, including after you have been saved, and decide you do not believe in " the way, the truth and the life" (Jesus) anymore, I don't think you are saved and will have your sins forgiven by God. Its rejection of His Son. The one thing that matters. So I have to respectfully disagree and say that you can choose to walk away from Jesus and deny Him and HIs truth and you will lose your salvation.

    I am looking for an OT defense to the lie that all Jews are saved and will go to heaven "just" because they are of the Jewish lineage. No works involved but rather in what line of people one is born into. That is the lie that I need to try and refute with this guy. I know there is no such thing as a blanket salvation. I'm looking for the biblical argument against it.
    "Those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint."Isaiah 40:31

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Out of the mountains and into the Piedmont
    Posts
    21,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sunshine2777 View Post
    So you think that if a "saved" person makes a conscious and pointed decision to reject Jesus, His Word and His truth, that He is still saved?
    I'm not saying a "saved" person as in a false conversion. I'm saying if your friend, or anyone else, was ever truly saved, in this dispensation, they're saved. Period. OSAS.

    https://gracethrufaith.com/topical-s...le-say-part-3/

    https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...ll-jews-saved/

    And finally: http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1159...ficit-Disorder

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    3,910

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRex2 View Post
    I don't know any Old Testament verses, but I know the Covenant he thinks will get
    him to heaven slammed shut when Jesus died on the Cross, and the new one opened
    up. The Jews have been set aside since they failed to accept their Messiah when He
    rode into town on a Colt. So, if he believes ANY of the New Testament, proof is easy.

    Hmmmm, Old Testament.

    I do remember something in either Proverbs or Psalms about a way
    which seems right to a man, but the end thereof ...

    And then, there is Psalms 1:5
    Therefore the ungodly will not stand in the Judgement,
    nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

    And I think we can prove that all have sinned.



    It's a start.
    Yes
    1 Thessalonians 5:4 (New International Version)

    4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,493

    Default

    Check out Romans 2:28-29. Also, agree with above post recommending Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He has a great website, www.ariel.org. On his site, under Resources tab, is Come and See. These are studies on various Scriptures and topics. Good for anyone to read, but especially so for your Jewish friend.

    -Lynn

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    1,061

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sunshine2777 View Post
    ..., I guess he has finally bought into the lie that ALL jews will go to heaven because they are the chosen ones. His response to me was "We worship the same God". And he is flat out rejecting Jesus and the NT.

    So, I know the sin argument and what Jesus did. I think what I need are OT verses maybe that show what "chosen" means ...
    I am a little concerned that we may have gotten off the subject here and not answered this.

    Except for the answer "eternal" gives, that I quoted below, most of what is in this thread still looks to the N.T., which her friend has seemingly rejected. sunshine2777 can tell us if I am mistaken, but I think we might need more O.T. pointers to the Messiah.

    Quote Originally Posted by eternal View Post
    If your friend wants to use the Old Testament, you are in luck. Paul used exactly the same argument in the letter to the Galatians. The judaizers were luring the Galatian believers into thinking salvation required faith in Jesus PLUS circumcision. Problem is if you add circumcision, you eventually start adding all the other Pharisaic requirements into your worldview and then you are stuck back in to believing you are responsible for your own salvation.

    The reasoning goes like this;
    Galatians 3
    ...
    ...
    ...
    Dr. A. Fruchtenbaum has a great study on Galatians dealing with all of this stuff.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,493

    Default

    Isaiah 53 is the classic Messianic passage in the Old Testament. Many Jewish believers were saved after reading that portion of the OT.

    -Lynn

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    1,061

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Isaiah 53 is the classic Messianic passage in the Old Testament. Many Jewish believers were saved after reading that portion of the OT.
    That is true. In fact, I had one Messianic Jew tell me he couldn't find
    a Jewish commentary on Isaiah because so much of it prophesies about Jesus.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    God's bootcamp of faith in NW Arkansas
    Posts
    1,976

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRex2 View Post
    I am a little concerned that we may have gotten off the subject here and not answered this.

    Except for the answer "eternal" gives, that I quoted below, most of what is in this thread still looks to the N.T., which her friend has seemingly rejected. sunshine2777 can tell us if I am mistaken, but I think we might need more O.T. pointers to the Messiah.
    I just saw this. Thank you TRex2 and you are correct. My friend has rejected the NT along with Jesus and I was looking for scripture from the OT that reference Jesus and point to Him.
    "Those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint."Isaiah 40:31

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    1,061

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sunshine2777 View Post
    I just saw this. Thank you TRex2 and you are correct. My friend has rejected the NT along with Jesus and I was looking for scripture from the OT that reference Jesus and point to Him.
    Not sure if this guy is on point with all of his theology, but some of this list might be useful.
    http://www.jesus.org/is-jesus-god/ol...testament.html

    In addition, Messianic Minutes did a series a few years back (I will try to find it)
    that showed how every aspect of the Passover meal points to Jesus.

    _-_

    I looked it up in my notes, and they covered the subject in 2013, from March 4th thru May 4th.

    I still have to get the current address for the mp3's but that would be over 3 hours worth of discussion about the Passover Meal, connecting all of the Scriptural doctrines of it and even some traditions to Christ, and showing how it all points to Him.

    I am not sure how the moderators would feel about my linking to a Messianic Jewish website, once I find the addresses....
    But I want you to know I haven't forgotten.
    Last edited by Steve53; August 21st, 2017 at 06:18 AM.

  15. #15

    Default

    Side note; when witnessing to Jews, terminology is important. You aren't really "converting" them, you're asking them to accept that Jesus Christ is their promised Messiah.

    Abraham, Moses, the Law and the Prophets are still valid, Biblical and devinely inspired. They still serve Jehovah, Yahweh and the Great I Am. They're just accepting the fullness of His Son and the gospel of Christ.

    Some of the Jewish traditions (see: legalism) need to fall by the wayside, but that's part of the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in their lives once they have accepted Jesus.!

    A lot of Christians get caught up in trying to "convert" Jews when we're really asking them to acknowledge that the entire Torah, Prophets and OT point to mankind's desperate need for a Savior, and that person is Jesus.

  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sunshine2777 View Post
    Hi,

    Before I go to other sources, I thought I would check in here first.

    I have a friend who is a Jew. He got saved and used to love the Lord. I knew from facebook that he still was still partaking in Jewish celebrations and holidays along side his christianity. Well, I guess he has finally bought into the lie that ALL jews will go to heaven because they are the chosen ones. His response to me was "We worship the same God". And he is flat out rejecting Jesus and the NT.

    So, I know the sin argument and what Jesus did. I think what I need are OT verses maybe that show what "chosen" means and that Jews who do not believe are not going to heaven and will go to hell.

    Have any of you argued this point and, if so, I"m open to suggestions. At first this made my heart hurt for him but now I'm angry because I think deep down he knows better. I also realize that it generally means one of two things: Either he never was really saved Or he was saved and is making a conscious choice to deny Jesus. Both end him up in hell. :-(

    Please help if you have dealt with this before. Thank you ahead of time. I do appreciate any input or advice given.
    Romans 11 does contain OT scripture which pertains to the Jews and also deals with a remnant of Israel that shall be saved


    Romans 11New King James Version (NKJV)
    Israel’s Rejection Not Total

    11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”?[a] 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

    7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

    “God has given them a spirit of stupor,
    Eyes that they should not see
    And ears that they should not hear,
    To this very day.”[d]

    9 And David says:

    “Let their table become a snare and a trap,
    A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
    10
    Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
    And bow down their back always.”[e]
    Israel’s Rejection Not Final

    11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

    13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

    16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:

    “The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
    And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
    27
    For this is My covenant with them,
    When I take away their sins.”[h]

    28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

    33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

    34
    “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
    Or who has become His counselor?”[i]
    35
    “Or who has first given to Him
    And it shall be repaid to him?”[j]

    36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
    Footnotes:

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    1,061

    Default

    I think you should have posted, and highlighted, the footnotes for that page:
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...1&version=NKJV
    Footnotes:

    Romans 11:3 1 Kings 19:10, 14
    Romans 11:4 1 Kings 19:18
    Romans 11:6 NU-Text omits the rest of this verse.
    Romans 11:8 Deuteronomy 29:4; Isaiah 29:10
    Romans 11:10 Psalm 69:22, 23
    Romans 11:22 NU-Text adds of God.
    Romans 11:26 Or delivered
    Romans 11:27 Isaiah 59:20, 21
    Romans 11:34 Isaiah 40:13; Jeremiah 23:18
    Romans 11:35 Job 41:11

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRex2 View Post
    I think you should have posted, and highlighted, the footnotes for that page:
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...1&version=NKJV
    Thankyou TRex2

    Quote Originally Posted by sunshine2777 View Post
    Hi,

    Before I go to other sources, I thought I would check in here first.

    I have a friend who is a Jew. He got saved and used to love the Lord. I knew from facebook that he still was still partaking in Jewish celebrations and holidays along side his christianity. Well, I guess he has finally bought into the lie that ALL jews will go to heaven because they are the chosen ones. His response to me was "We worship the same God". And he is flat out rejecting Jesus and the NT.

    So, I know the sin argument and what Jesus did. I think what I need are OT verses maybe that show what "chosen" means and that Jews who do not believe are not going to heaven and will go to hell.

    Have any of you argued this point and, if so, I"m open to suggestions. At first this made my heart hurt for him but now I'm angry because I think deep down he knows better. I also realize that it generally means one of two things: Either he never was really saved Or he was saved and is making a conscious choice to deny Jesus. Both end him up in hell. :-(

    Please help if you have dealt with this before. Thank you ahead of time. I do appreciate any input or advice given.



    http://www.bible-studys.org/Bible%20...Continued.html

    Ezekiel Chapter 20 Continued

    20:27 Therefore, son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed me, in that they have committed a trespass against me.

    Ezekiel had been relating to the elders about the sins of the children of Israel from the very beginning. Now this is directed, not to the elders specifically, but to all of Israel. This is as if God is saying, in all these years, you have not changed. The fathers, from the very beginning, had blasphemed God in their worship of false gods. They are still doing the very same thing.

    Even in the captivity in Babylon, these elders were still seeking advice from the false prophets, while they sought advice from Ezekiel. They were not faithful to God.

    20:28 [For] when I had brought them into the land, [for] the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to them, then they saw every high hill, and all the thick trees, and they offered there their sacrifices, and there they presented the provocation of their offering: there also they made their sweet savour, and poured out there their drink offerings.

    In the beautiful Promised Land that God had given them, they did not rejoice in the beauty of the hills and the trees as being gifts from God. They began their false worship all over again. They worshipped false gods in the high places, and under the thick trees. It seemed everything they saw, caused them to seek the worship of false gods. The sweet savor and the drink offerings were to be for God alone. To burn incense to a false god, is blasphemy in the sight of God.

    20:29 Then I said unto them, What [is] the high place whereunto ye go? And the name thereof is called Bamah unto this day.

    "Bamah" means in ancient Israel or Canaan, a shrine built on an elevated site. For Canaanites the shrines were devoted to fertility deities, to the Baals, or to the Semitic goddesses called the Asherot. The shrines often included an altar and a sacred object such as a stone pillar or wooden pole. One of the oldest known high places, dating from c. 2500 BC, is at Megiddo. And we all know what happens at Megiddo.

    The high places, during the time of the temple, were places where they met and worshipped false gods. The worship in the high places was a very sensuous type of worship. Many times, it included physical adultery, as well as spiritual adultery.

    20:30 Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations?

    This is saying that they have never changed. They are still involved in this very same type of sensual worship their fathers were involved in. It seems all of the chastisements God has sent upon them, has not caused them to stop worshipping false gods.

    20:31 For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.

    It seemed, the worship of Molech was prominent on God's mind. He not only removed Himself from the temple and destroyed it, but He has removed Himself from the presence of these idolatrous people, as well. God will not listen to them. He has turned His back to them.

    20:32 And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all, that ye say, We will be as the heathen, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone.

    They had decided, since they were in exile, and since the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, they could go ahead and worship the false gods. They thought the law left, when the temple was destroyed. What they did not realize, was that to belong to God is a relationship, not a religion.

    20:33 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

    God wanted to rule them with His love as a husband to them. They were not faithful, so He will rule them with a rod of iron, in His fury. The "stretched out arm" shows God's judgment.

    20:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

    Paul alludes to this in 2 Cor. 6:17. "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you," "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

    God will someday rule over Israel in the glorious kingdom of Messiah, after the people have repented and been saved.

    20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

    Other lands where the scattered people of Israel live are pictured as a wilderness in which the Jews will suffer.

    This is analogous to God’s bringing His people from Egypt through the wilderness long ago, before thrusting them in the Promised Land.

    20:36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.

    The wilderness wanderings had been a series of problems. Every time they turned from God to false gods, the problems began. They would repent, and God would start them again. It was a series of lessons to be learned. This will be no different. The hardships will be great enough, to cause some to repent and seek God.

    20:37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

    God used a shepherd figure here, apt since He was their Great Shepherd. As a shepherd, God brings His sheep home to their fold, has them file in, separating sheep from goats, passing under His shepherd’s rod to be noted and checked for injury.

    He will bring them into the bond of the New Covenant by giving them His Spirit with life. This is Israel’s final salvation (See Roman 11 v.26-33).

    20:38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.

    The "purging" is a separation of the chaff from the wheat, or a separating of the sheep from the goats. God's remnant will be made up of those who do not bow their knees to a false god. Only this pure remnant will go back into the Promised Land. God is the one who separates them. He judges by what is in their hearts.

    God will see that no rebel, no one without the renewing by His Spirit in salvation, will come back to Palestine to have a part in the messianic kingdom. All whom He permits to return will serve Him in contrast to those who serve idols. The purging takes place during the “time of Jacob’s trouble” during the Great Tribulation.

    20:39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter [also], if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.

    God is saying, decide who you will serve, this day. If you are determined to worship idols and false gods, then go on and serve them. Do not come back to me. Do not pretend to worship me, if you are still worshipping false gods. God will only accept the worship of those who worship Him alone. He will not be one of many gods. He is the Almighty God. There is no other.



    Verses 40-42: “all…in the land”. The promised regathering in Messiah’s earthly kingdom is to the very same land, literally Palestine, from which they were scattered, expressly the land given to their fathers.

    They will “all” be there, repentant and saved, serving the Lord wholeheartedly, a united nation engaged in purified worship.

    20:40 For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.

    In the Jerusalem that is restored, there will be no worship of false gods. The One True God will be worshipped. The temple will be restored. Their offerings and oblations will be acceptable unto Him, because they will worship Him with all their hearts.

    20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.

    The sweet savor, in that day, will not be of obligation, but because of their love for God. Their hearts will be in their sweet savor offerings. In fact, they will love so much, it will be difficult to separate them from their offerings. God will bring them home to their promised land from all the places they have been scattered. There will be a sign to the heathen everywhere, that they worship the One True God.

    20:42 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country [for] the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.

    This is a promise of the restoration of the Promised Land to them. Even more than that, it is a promise of God restoring covenant relationship with them. He will be their God, and they will be His people.

    Those who believe that the church has replaced Israel for his special blessing should read this scripture carefully.

    20:43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.

    This speaks of a deeply repentant people for the sorrow they had caused, by their worship of false gods. When they remember their sins, they will hate themselves for the sins.

    20:44 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

    Notice the culmination of this in the fact, that they will now know that He is the LORD. This restoration is for the sake of God, as well as man. This restoration is not because they are worthy, but because He is worthy. God has forgiven them, and restored them to fellowship with Him. Every promise that God made to Abraham, will be because of God's faith. God is Truth. He said it, He will do it.

    20:45-46 “Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,” “Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and drop [thy word] toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field;”

    This is a momentary break in the previous sermon of Ezekiel.

    Verses 46-48 … Preach against the South. The South is Palestine, particularly Judah, usually invaded from the North through Babylonia was to the East. Its army would swing West toward the Mediterranean Sea and then come South out of the North to invade Judah.

    The invader, Nebuchadnezzar in 586 B.C., will overwhelm the land as a sweeping fire devouring trees indiscriminately, green or dry. Palestine had much more “forest” in biblical times.

    20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.

    “I will kindle a fire”. This parable of the forest that is consumed by fire metaphorically speaks of fires of judgment, sweeping through the land in the form of the Babylonian invaders, like a mighty forest fire which cannot be quenched. (Compare the fiery future devastation yet to affect the Middle East and the world, as forecast in Rev. 9:14-18.

    20:48 And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.

    There will be no doubt from anyone that the destruction that comes, is from a judgment of God. No one, except God, can stop fire that He starts.

    20:49 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?

    Certainly, all prophecy is some what of a parable. Each Scripture in the Bible is a parable, in the sense that there is a deeper message than the one we see with our physical eye. It does not mean that the message that we see with our physical eye is not true. It just means that, if we pray and ask God to reveal to us the meaning of the parable, He will reveal to us the spiritual meaning of the Scripture, as well as the literal.

    Ezekiel spoke Truth that God put into His mouth.

    This verse clearly demonstrates the elders’ refusal to comprehend Ezekiel’s clear message. To the unwilling heart, there was no understanding.
    Last edited by Steve53; August 22nd, 2017 at 10:50 AM.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    1,061

    Default

    That is a very good reference from Ezekiel.

    Also, what do you think of Amos 8 ?
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+8&version=ESV

    I note that, even though it says "in that day" (which is usually a reference to after
    the Rapture) it kinda describes Israel from 70 AD to 1800 AD.

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRex2 View Post
    That is a very good reference from Ezekiel.

    Also, what do you think of Amos 8 ?
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+8&version=ESV

    I note that, even though it says "in that day" (which is usually a reference to after
    the Rapture) it kinda describes Israel from 70 AD to 1800 AD.
    Amos 8 seems to me to be speaking of the time of judgement of Israel as pictured by the summer fruit, Israel being ripe for judgement. The reference to summer being near is made in Math.24,Mark 13 and Luke 21 and summer will have arrived after the rapture of the church, for it will be the time when the Lord will again deal with Jacob or Israel. It will be the time of Jacob's trouble, actually the last 3 and 1/2 years of the tribulation period. The Lord will no longer pass by Israel, the hand of the Lord will be heavy upon them in judgement. After all we can know from Zech that 2/3 of the nation of Israel shall perish in the trib period. Amos 8, excellent for what sunshine needs.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •