Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: A question about imminencey

  1. #1

    Default A question about imminencey

    Hi all!Something has been baffling me, and I was hoping someone could help explain this. The doctrine of imminency means that we can be Raptured at any moment, right? That nothing has to happen before Christ's return for his Church?
    But we also say that none of this 'end times' momentum could have happened before Israel was back in the land. Does that include the Rapture, or could it have happened according to the doctrine of imminency before that just the same?
    It's just confusing me, because you hear so many bible teachers saying that the 'super sign' that Christ's coming for his Church is near, is that Israel has been reborn, like that was a condition. But if the scriptures that point to imminency tells us that, well...Christ's return could be at any time...how does that mesh?

    Any and all help welcome!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    central IL
    Posts
    2,148

    Default

    I've been having questions about this too.

    For example, John received Revelation after Paul had written about the Rapture and Second Coming. Maybe Paul was expecting Christ to come in his lifetime, but I believe that the seven letters represent the church age. So if Jesus returned in say 1480 then there would be no Reformation and no Laodicean church. Also then there would be a span of time between the Age of Grace and the Tribulation period. I could understand a small time span, but not hundreds of years.

    I feel I need to find a list of verses that are used to defend the doctrine of imminency and study them a bit.
    Last edited by Wishing4; July 8th, 2017 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Spelling
    Isaiah 26:3 You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on You, because he trusts in You.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Fairbanks Alaska
    Posts
    19,231

    Default

    Here's a couple of links relating to the doctrine of imminency which may be helpful:

    https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...-of-imminency/

    http://www.raptureready.com/imminency/
    Tall Timbers, Imperfect but forgiven

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    1,061

    Default

    Thanks TT for those links, they answered some questions I had on the history of the Church.
    Those links answer a lot of questions, but I would like to add something that may help.

    Many things are only obvious in retrospect. Think how many times we look back
    and see how some event changed our course, in a way we did not predict.

    You cannot know what color the outside of the mountain is until you exit the tunnel.

    But, God has always known when the Rapture would be.

    Someone once told me that when I see the word "mystery" in the Bible, to interpret it as
    something that was unknown, until God revealed it, at the proper time. Looking at the two
    links TT provided, it is obvious that there were clues given, but that no one understood
    them until after they happened. We understand them when we look back on them.

    God provided the clues, but knew we would not understand them until
    after they happened, hence we would not know the timing of the Rapture.

    Hence, the doctrine of immanency is valid.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    3,911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRex2 View Post
    Thanks TT for those links, they answered some questions I had on the history of the Church.
    Those links answer a lot of questions, but I would like to add something that may help.

    Many things are only obvious in retrospect. Think how many times we look back
    and see how some event changed our course, in a way we did not predict.

    You cannot know what color the outside of the mountain is until you exit the tunnel.

    But, God has always known when the Rapture would be.

    Someone once told me that when I see the word "mystery" in the Bible, to interpret it as
    something that was unknown, until God revealed it, at the proper time. Looking at the two
    links TT provided, it is obvious that there were clues given, but that no one understood
    them until after they happened. We understand them when we look back on them.

    God provided the clues, but knew we would not understand them until
    after they happened, hence we would not know the timing of the Rapture.

    Hence, the doctrine of immanency is valid.
    Wow!! Great question, awesome answer!
    1 Thessalonians 5:4 (New International Version)

    4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRex2 View Post
    Thanks TT for those links, they answered some questions I had on the history of the Church.
    Those links answer a lot of questions, but I would like to add something that may help.

    Many things are only obvious in retrospect. Think how many times we look back
    and see how some event changed our course, in a way we did not predict.

    You cannot know what color the outside of the mountain is until you exit the tunnel.

    But, God has always known when the Rapture would be.

    Someone once told me that when I see the word "mystery" in the Bible, to interpret it as
    something that was unknown, until God revealed it, at the proper time. Looking at the two
    links TT provided, it is obvious that there were clues given, but that no one understood
    them until after they happened. We understand them when we look back on them.

    God provided the clues, but knew we would not understand them until
    after they happened, hence we would not know the timing of the Rapture.

    Hence, the doctrine of immanency is valid.
    Hi Trex, thanks, this was a helpful answer. It's a bit like all the 'hints' in the OT concerning the coming of Christ, isn't it? From our perspective, we think "how can they NOT see that Jesus is their Messiah?"

    I was thinking over all this last night. I know the bible teaches it's wrong to date set, and I'm not trying to...wouldn't even know where to begin! But, as many do here, I do feel that we are perhaps living in the time that very well may see the return of Christ. And I was wondering if perhaps that was presumptuous of me. After all...almost every generation of Christians have believed the same thing, and have been wrong. But then I thought...well, then, I'm in good company! If Paul thought it...if many of the Church fathers, people much more learned than I am, thought it down through the generations, then it stands to reason that they had good reason to believe that the return of Christ could have been at any moment, even then, even before the restoration of Israel. I'm not a bible scholar, but whether they concluded that the Rapture was something that could happen even without the Jews being regathered into the land, or if the Rapture could have been the event that would gather the Jews, sparking events that led to the Tribulation.

    I honestly don't know, but I can say that I'm super excited to be alive at this time!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    1,061

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi45 View Post
    ... I do feel that we are perhaps living in the time that very well may see the return of Christ. And I was wondering if perhaps that was presumptuous of me. After all...almost every generation of Christians have believed the same thing, ...
    But, frankly, that isn't true at all.

    From the link TT provided:
    http://www.raptureready.com/imminency/
    History has proven that mankind is a dreadful biblical guide. The apostasy that swept over the Church caused a lack of prophecy commentary from about 450 AD until the 1600s. People stopped thinking for themselves. Their interpretation of the Bible became what the institutional church spoon-fed them.

    Premillennialism largely disappeared after it was condemned as heretical by the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD. It wasn’t until the reform movement of the early seventeenth century that we see a rebound in the number of statements that reflect the pretribulational view.
    And even as the Reformation took hold, very, very few believed the Rapture was imminent. Only a very few Bible scholars thought it would be in their lifetime. I don't believe Martin Luther wrote about it at all, and Newton thought it would be in 2060 AD. (Turns out that, despite Newton's flawed interpretation, he might not be that far off )

    Real Pre Millennial Pre Trib popularity did not come until after Israel became a (very old) New Nation.

    I consider it to be a sign, those who mock us by saying:
    "every generation thought they would see the return of The Lord,"

    2 Peter 3:4
    They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRex2 View Post
    But, frankly, that isn't true at all.

    From the link TT provided:
    http://www.raptureready.com/imminency/

    And even as the Reformation took hold, very, very few believed the Rapture was imminent. Only a very few Bible scholars thought it would be in their lifetime. I don't believe Martin Luther wrote about it at all, and Newton thought it would be in 2060 AD. (Turns out that, despite Newton's flawed interpretation, he might not be that far off )

    Real Pre Millennial Pre Trib popularity did not come until after Israel became a (very old) New Nation.

    I consider it to be a sign, those who mock us by saying:
    "every generation thought they would see the return of The Lord,"

    2 Peter 3:4
    You are probably right about the history of Pre-Mil, Pre-Trib, but I'm fairly sure that even within that gap, even dismissing the Rapture, they believed in Christ's imminent return. I have no way of finding any of the resources again, but over the years as I've read on the subject and noted interesting bits of info. You know how you do when you read, you remember something because you've gone "huh, that's interesting", but then can't remember where you've read it! But yes, a lot of the Church fathers, even those who did not believe in a pre trib rapture, still expected Christ's coming to be in their life time. I found it slightly fascinating. Is it just human nature to think that their generation is the terminal (so to speak) one? Is it because every generation sees such wickedness and heartache that they believe His coming must be soon? That then leads one to wonder if God has designed it, in part, like that, so that every generation has that wondrous hope to help them through every day. I don't know, perhaps I'm over thinking it. Or, most likely, I'm trying to justify in my head why I'm right while they were wrong! I'd really, really like to be right!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
    This is how I see imminency. Now, before you label me an apostate, PLEASE read the article all the way through with an open mind. Having said that, here's the first one: {Mod Snip}
    Now, before you scream at me and ban me, read this too.
    {Mod Snip}
    Thank you for not attacking me because I have slightly different views!
    Hey...no judgement here...I used to be Amillennial!
    As far as the Rev 12 sign thing goes...I honestly don't know what to think, so I couldn't know what to say to you even if I wanted! I'll confess that when I first came across it I was sure it was a scam, the next Harold Camping, date setting, etc. But I really hate those people who you just cannot reason with...you know the types...the sort that won't consider anything other than what they believe, 'cause what they believe HAS to be right, 'cause it's what THEY believe! So, in my effort to NOT be one of those people, I did some reading on the whole thing. I still don't know what I think about it, but I've come to two conclusions: I can't dismiss it on the bounds of "astrology", because God has used signs in the heaven before (hello Bethlehem star!). The second conclusion was the date itself. The fact that the sign aligns with the Feats of Trumpets, and that Christ's death, burial, resurrection and then the falling of the Holy Spirit all fell on the first 4 feast festivals...well. It could all be coincidence, but there's enough there for me to not dismiss it immediately and call people crazy! So...I'm praying over it and reading some more. And I suppose time will tell! If I'm looking for my Savior to come Rapture me, whether it's in September or next week, it's all good!
    Last edited by Steve53; July 12th, 2017 at 01:43 PM.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi45 View Post
    Hey...no judgement here...I used to be Amillennial!
    That would be interesting to hear ... I mean, how you came to be convinced of Pre-trib (that is, assuming you are convinced of it). I almost started a thread in Christian Chat with that as its topic, "How did you become convinced of the Pre-trib view?"... but I got distracted with other more important and urgent tasks and never got around to it.
    I may still do so, at some point. (I like hearing about people's journeys and what the Lord used to lead them...)

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post
    That would be interesting to hear ... I mean, how you came to be convinced of Pre-trib (that is, assuming you are convinced of it). I almost started a thread in Christian Chat with that as its topic, "How did you become convinced of the Pre-trib view?"... but I got distracted with other more important and urgent tasks and never got around to it.
    I may still do so, at some point. (I like hearing about people's journeys and what the Lord used to lead them...)
    Well...it's not really much of a story, I suppose. I grew up in a Baptist church/family that didn't really talk about End Times much, so couldn't have told you my position on it then. When I got a bit older I began to realize that my Grandparents took a bit of notice of this. They had a Rapture posture up, and used to get the "Herold of Hope" magazine. So it caught my interest, naturally, and I began to do some reading on it all. My husband, however, was not a Dispensationalist, and as I talked with him about it I began questioning some things. (To be quite honest, there are still some doctrinal questions I have that I just can't answer...but I'm working on it!). I stopped talking to him about it, as I felt he was influencing me, but I continued to read.
    Anyway, after about a year of serious digging and reading I finally came to the conclusion that the Amil position was the correct one. It seemed the simplest system, one that fit naturally in the text of scripture without too much contortion. And for a while, I was happy with that.

    But, it would seem, God wasn't going to let that be. I couldn't seem to leave it at that. It was like a little, constant niggle. No matter how often I told myself that Dispensationalism didn't add up, I could not leave it alone. I think the kicker was Israel. Clearly God is not done with them. And while I could happily still believe God was going to bring the Jews to Jesus while I was an Amil, it was the current political events around Israel that made me take a step backwards.
    I went back and read Ez 37-38 and put it together with Rom 9-11. And the dominoes began to fall. If this was talking about and end time event that was literally going to take place, then I had to re-evaluate my whole paradigm....

    So...here I am, pretty down with all the terms of Dispensationalism (from my previous research), but bran spanking new in terms of realising all this stuff is going to happen literally. The time line is pretty messed up for me, as well. As an Amil, all I had to know was..."Jesus is going to come back, the end...Yay!"

    So...perhaps be a little patient with me? I'm at that stage where I'm trying to switch my brain from one understanding to another, which is a little tricky. I'm not playing you, I promise. I can't...I simply cannot ignore what I'm seeing in the world at the moment. It's straight out of the bible! I'd be foolish to cling to the old way while I watch it all play out on the news!

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi45 View Post
    Well...it's not really much of a story, I suppose. I grew up in ...
    Oh, I loved reading all of that, Naomi, thank you so much for sharing.

    I just think about some of those in the late 1800's who believed Israel surely has a place in God's end-time plans (per Scripture), even [believing this] before they were to actually become a nation again in 1948... I'm pretty sure some others likely thought those people were nutso.




    ETA: I find it to be a very rare thing for anyone to go from being Amillennialist to being Pre-trib, so I can't help but commend you for considering examining it more thoroughly [in light of Rom 9-11] !

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
    Now, before you label me ...
    Interesting how that the same year one who [from the article] described his... 'awakening' you might say (meaning, taking a closer look at Scripture...), that same year (early... still winter) I was myself led to write a poem (and then post it online) having to do with what Scripture itself reveals (regarding prophecy). It was fairly general... but the idea behind it was basically 'take a closer look at the Word'... It tells us more than we commonly think it does...




    [and no, I'm not referring to the "no man knows" idiom..., for I believe those particular verses refer to His Second Coming to the earth, per context (rather than to our rapture)... in case anyone was wondering, I wanted to try to be more clear there ... (which I explained how I understand that, here: http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?2007...37#post2628337 )]

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing4 View Post
    Also then there would be a span of time between the Age of Grace and the Tribulation period. I could understand a small time span, but not hundreds of years.
    It's been awhile, but I had posted a study that I did, about the phrase "and then [kai tote - G2532 G5119]" in the NT, and how it never refers to a substantial length of time [as opposed to ANOTHER Grk word for "then [G1543 - eita]" used elsewhere, 1 Cor 15:24, for example, which word has NO 'time element' attached (with THAT particular word for "then")]... and we find this phrase ["and then [kai tote]"] in 2 Thess 2:7-8, where it is talking about [the one restraining] "UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN [kai tote]..."

    If you are among those who [like I do] believe "the restrainer" is "the Holy Spirit indwelt Church" (being raptured out, in this passage), the "AND THEN" refers to pretty much what follows on the heels (of our removal). "And then shall that Wicked be revealed..."

    So I agree, based on this study, that there is not a substantial "gap" of time between our rapture and the "whose coming" (of the 'man of sin'), Dan 9:27a / 2 Thess 2:7-8, 9.



    ETA: I find it somewhat sad that Amillennialism, not distinguishing these "then's," as a result, takes the 1 Cor 15:24 passage to [wrongly] mean "immediately then" (thereby missing and effectively cutting out the [future] Millennial Kingdom, because of this mis-use of the word "G1543" used there [ETA: by "missing," I mean missing the fact that Scripture refers to the Millennial Kingdom, and that it starts upon His return/Second Coming to the earth--Just clarifying lest anyone inadvertently misconstrue what I meant by "missing". I know it's easy for misunderstandings to occur on bb's, so just wanted to make that a little more clear. lol])

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Temecula area, southern California
    Posts
    309

    Default

    Regarding the "thens"..........

    I've always believed the time between the rapture and the tribulation beginning would be short, based on the fact that the rain started falling as soon as Noah closed the doors to the ark, and God sealed them. Also, the fire and brimstone hailed down on Sodom and Gomorrah immediately after Lot and his family were removed from the cities. There was not a lot of time in between.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    midwest
    Posts
    85

    Default

    I have always looked at the word imminent as not right now or today, but more as advice or even a warning to be prepared. What is imminent when you speak of a timeless GOD? How is time important to GOD? He set up the moon and the stars for us, he created the seasons, but how is time important? Yes he set up a period of seventy weeks, He chose to have Ezekiel lay on his sides for how long? So for our benefit GOD uses time or times.
    Imminent is a word for us while here on earth. The early church or first century church felt that Christ was coming back at any moment.

    They felt that it was imminent. The second church age also felt the same way during their tribulations and sufferings.

    But still imminent can apply to tomorrow or two thousand years ago.

    Comparing imminent to eternity means what? In fact, comparing the word "Imminent" to eternity applies how? Right now or two thousand years ago or from now Imminent has the same place in time. It does not matter, It's eternity This is one reason I view the word as advice and a warning to be ready at any time.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    1,061

    Default

    You pretty much have it. But there is a difference between Israel and the Church,
    and it is reflected in the way God tells them what to expect.

    He set up the moon and the stars for us, he created the seasons, but how is time important? Yes he set up a period of seventy weeks, He chose to have Ezekiel lay on his sides for how long? So for our benefit GOD uses time or times.
    God almost always gave Israel a time line. Egypt for 400 years,
    Wandering for 40 years, Babylon for 70.
    The Messiah will arrive in 483 years (but I think that one
    was sealed up, so that they would not understand).

    God never gives the Church a timeline.
    He says "be ready, always."

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Farmington, MO
    Posts
    2,109

    Default

    Someone who's got a presence on youtube whom I've learned a lot from recently said that we say "imminent" meaning "could happen any time" but he was saying that the biblical "imminent" referring to the harpazo originally meant "it's coming" in a sense of it's coming and going to catch up to us at some point. He likened it to a truck that's down the road heading for you. It's definitely coming for you but it hasn't reached to you just yet.
    No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn... Isaiah 54.17

    A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
    Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
    Psalm 91:7-8

    What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
    Romans 8:31

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    1,061

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WarriorX View Post
    Someone who's got a presence on youtube whom I've learned a lot from recently said that we say "imminent" meaning "could happen any time" but he was saying that the biblical "imminent" referring to the harpazo originally meant "it's coming" in a sense of it's coming and going to catch up to us at some point. He likened it to a truck that's down the road heading for you. It's definitely coming for you but it hasn't reached to you just yet.
    The only problems I have with that is that the truck is visible and you can know when it will
    reach you. Also, I don't think the word imminent is in the Bible at all, and was only coined
    by those of us writing about it in the 20th century (or maybe the 19th).

    We got the idea because of several verses that say to be always ready because you
    will not know the day or the hour when He returns. Whether you interpret that as
    being the Rapture or the Second Coming in any particular verse, it ultimately applies
    to both since we will not know the day or the hour for either.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Farmington, MO
    Posts
    2,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRex2 View Post
    The only problems I have with that is that the truck is visible and you can know when it will
    reach you. Also, I don't think the word imminent is in the Bible at all, and was only coined
    by those of us writing about it in the 20th century (or maybe the 19th).

    We got the idea because of several verses that say to be always ready because you
    will not know the day or the hour when He returns. Whether you interpret that as
    being the Rapture or the Second Coming in any particular verse, it ultimately applies
    to both since we will not know the day or the hour for either.

    But not everybody may notice the truck. It's coming either way.
    The Second Coming is clearly marked as to when to start counting. 1260 days after the Abomination of Desolation at the 3rd temple.
    Also God does all His big things on the Feast days. And Trumpets is the only one that has an idiom that the jewish people of the day knew about already :You will not know the day or the hour". Of course we have to be ready at all times because death is still in this world nevertheless.
    No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn... Isaiah 54.17

    A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
    Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
    Psalm 91:7-8

    What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
    Romans 8:31

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tall Timbers View Post
    Here's a couple of links relating to the doctrine of imminency which may be helpful:

    https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...-of-imminency/

    http://www.raptureready.com/imminency/
    This contains the reference to the rapture ready article with more added if you wish to read it and the comment section is good also for it contains an argument against imminency.

    https://amos37.com/wii/

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by michigander View Post
    This contains the reference to the rapture ready article with more added if you wish to read it and the comment section is good also for it contains an argument against imminency.
    I skimmed the comments section (rather quickly) but it seemed to me that their arguments were "off" (6th Seal Rapture?? nope...; other arguments like that, too. But again, I skimmed it quickly. )

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •