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Thread: New Covenant vs 2 new covenants

  1. #1
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    Default New Covenant vs 2 new covenants

    Never mind, found the answer.

    http://walvoord.com/article/27

    It's 2 new covenants.

  2. #2

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    Some things to consider... I've noted how the various eschatological views have placed the following passages (for their "fulfillment," for lack of a better word):

    Lk 22:16, 18, 30 -

    16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof [of the Passover, from verse 15], until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

    17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

    18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. [see also Matt 26:29 "when I drink it NEW WITH YOU..." (see also Matt 19:28; and Matt 25:31-34 for its timing)]

    19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

    20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

    [...]

    30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [see Matt 19:28; and Matt 25:31-34 for its timing]


    Amillennialists (for example) say this is occurring NOW (in a 'spiritual' sense), whereas Premillennialists (that's us) believe this will take place in the future (in the Millennial Kingdom, upon Christ's return to the earth). There is another possibility/consideration... that the Matt 19:28 passage is distinct from the Lk 22:30 passage (where one uses the specific phrase "twelve thrones" [pertaining to Israel in the MK] and the other just says "thrones"). But it is beyond my little pea-brain...

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    Quote Originally Posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post
    Amillennialists (for example) say this is occurring NOW (in a 'spiritual' sense),
    Amillennials have crazy theology. They take literal a lot of things but then "spiritualize" the rest. Main argument I've hear from them is the premillenialists say that "Jesus failed". I won't even get started on how that is what they are saying.

    whereas Premillennialists (that's us) believe this will take place in the future (in the Millennial Kingdom, upon Christ's return to the earth). There is another possibility/consideration... that the Matt 19:28 passage is distinct from the Lk 22:30 passage (where one uses the specific phrase "twelve thrones" [pertaining to Israel in the MK] and the other just says "thrones"). But it is beyond my little pea-brain...
    As far as different things in the gospels it's from different persons view points. Kinda like how when Christ was crucified we got "Here is Jesus" in one Gospel and then "Jesus the Christ" and "King of the Jews" but in John's it says "Here is Jesus the Christ King of the Jews" and John is more than likely the apostle who was right next to Jesus. There are certainly nuggets of info to be had between each of the 4 gospels but one doesn't disprove the other IMHO.
    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BorrowedTime View Post
    As far as different things in the gospels it's from different persons view points. Kinda like how when Christ was crucified we got "Here is Jesus" in one Gospel and then "Jesus the Christ" and "King of the Jews" but in John's it says "Here is Jesus the Christ King of the Jews" and John is more than likely the apostle who was right next to Jesus. There are certainly nuggets of info to be had between each of the 4 gospels but one doesn't disprove the other IMHO.
    Correct. It means that more information was supplied than what one may have initially thought, at first blush...

    and in a few cases, two separate things are being referred to, in what is commonly considered to be parallel. (Some in the Olivet Discourse; and Matt 10:26, 27 / Lk 12:2, 3 , for example...)

    Who knows...

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    Quote Originally Posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post
    Correct. It means that more information was supplied than what one may have initially thought, at first blush...

    and in a few cases, two separate things are being referred to, in what is commonly considered to be parallel. (Some in the Olivet Discourse, for example...)

    Who knows...
    God knows!! Lol

    But in seriousness, gotquestions has a good answer on the differences of the 4.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.got...nt-gospel.html

    It's kind of why I think Acts becomes a difficult book for a lot of people and why false denominations tend to stay far away from the book. Acts has a lot of great info, but must be tackled in the transition from Jew to Gentile and people fail to see how it covers ALL of Paul's life and Epistles. Luke was documenting the transition and Paul's life.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BorrowedTime View Post
    Acts has a lot of great info, but must be tackled in the transition from Jew to Gentile...
    Agreed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post
    Agreed.
    Same

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    Quote Originally Posted by USCG_Vet View Post
    Same
    Agreed agreed agreed.

    I will say though. If we look at Hosea I see an interesting connection with the day = 1000 years to the Lord and as it pertains to going from Jew to Gentile back to Jew.

    “After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth. O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away. Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth. For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.”
    **Hosea‬ *6:2-6‬ *KJV‬‬
    http://bible.com/1/hos.6.2-6.kjv
    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

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    I've seen a lot of very interesting verses about Ephraim that I find VERY fascinating... But since I learned about the 2 new covenants that BorrowedTime was trying to show me, I now have to figure out if there is dual meaning, and if one of those meanings applies to the Gentile Bride vs the Jewish Wife.

    When I read that Ephraim also cheated on God, that now means Ephraim doesn't apply to our new covenant with the Lord.

    Here is a little quiz for myself:

    Jeremiah 23:

    “3 But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,” says the Lord.
    5 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
    “That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
    A King shall reign and prosper,
    And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
    6 In His days Judah will be saved,
    And Israel will dwell safely;
    Now this is His name by which He will be called:
    THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

    gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries.... This is obviously the tribes of Israel, the Jews... back to earthly Israel.
    It's talking about the end MKingdom. They will be fruitful and increase. They shall fear no more, nor shall they be lacking

    "I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them" <--- Who are the shepherds? My Raptured saints detector is going off here.

    Then it goes into the Davidic rule of Christ over Israel through the Jew's new covenant.

    The reason I concentrate on the OT is that the good stuff about what's going to happen in the future is mostly in the OT.
    The NT is so short, with very little data in comparison to the OT.

    If you want to know more about the future, you need to know the past... there is nothing new under the sun!
    Last edited by Steve53; July 28th, 2017 at 10:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by USCG_Vet View Post
    The reason I concentrate on the OT is that the good stuff about what's going to happen in the future is mostly in the OT.
    The NT is so short, with very little data in comparison to the OT.

    If you want to know more about the future, you need to know the past... there is nothing new under the sun!
    True. And it's one of the reasons, even though our standards of living are between Romans thru Philemon, we should still study the Old Testament. Just gotta keep The Who, what, when where and whys in order.

    Plus we see how Grace and mercy are a constant factor of Our Heavenly Father. Adam and Eve, Noah, Lot, Abraham etc etc.

    Earlier you had said something about marriage and wanted to know how to connect it. Romans 7:1-4

    “Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
    **Romans‬ *7:1-4‬ *KJV‬‬
    http://bible.com/1/rom.7.1-4.kjv
    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BorrowedTime View Post
    True. And it's one of the reasons, even though our standards of living are between Romans thru Philemon, we should still study the Old Testament. Just gotta keep The Who, what, when where and whys in order.

    Plus we see how Grace and mercy are a constant factor of Our Heavenly Father. Adam and Eve, Noah, Lot, Abraham etc etc.

    Earlier you had said something about marriage and wanted to know how to connect it. Romans 7:1-4

    “Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
    **Romans‬ *7:1-4‬ *KJV‬‬
    http://bible.com/1/rom.7.1-4.kjv
    Grace, mercy, and Faith. From my studies, faith, like that of David vs Goliath, Daniel in the lion's den, Abraham and his son with the lamb...

    Yes, familiar with Christ dying so that the Jews are free from the law... well at least those who haven't been blinded by that mystery. So for those who are still blinded, they are still part of their new covenant...

    Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.... hold on!

    Something isn't right here. I've been taking notes on NT quotes from the OT and then I read Hosea 2.
    There is a covenant with "them", beasts, birds, bugs etc... related to the New Jerusalem.

    The "And it shall be in that day" in verse 16 appears to be a break, a separation, from the first part of Hosea 2.

    There are two different "her" pronouns going on here!... one is normal text above, the other is italic at the bottom with a Hebrew word that looks VERY much like Rachel (the 2nd wife that Jacob married and loved more... and fathered Joseph from).
    Strong's has this translation as Sister(s) 'my beloved one'! http://biblehub.com/parallel/hosea/2-23.htm

    The main "her" is absolutely Israel... out of Egypt. This is the normal "her" pronoun. This is the one Jacob didn't Love! Leah!
    Jacob had lots of kids from Leah who hated their younger brother Joseph (from Rachel). Joseph later has very similar life experiences that Christ had.
    Rachel is the sister... Jacob's "beloved one"...

    Who is this "covenant" to? The first "her" (Leah) or the second "her"(Rachel)? Or BOTH... "them" !!!
    Because when I read it, it sounds like the covenant is to "them"... Both

    Even the translation for Jezreel is "God Sows": (two Israelites, two cities) .... two wives? Leah and Rachel...God sows both of them! (Israel and Judah ??? )
    http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3157.htm

    Here are my notes I was taking:

    Paul quoting the Old Testament:
    Romans 11:30 (Hosea 2)
    For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,

    Peter quoting the Old Testament:
    1 Peter 2 (Hosea 2)
    9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.


    Old Testament_________________________________________ ___________________________

    Hosea 2:23
    Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth, And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy; Then I will say to those who were not My people, ‘You are My people!’ And they shall say, ‘You are my God!’”

    More notes I was taking:


    Paul quoting the Old Testament:
    Romans 10:19–20 (Deut 32) & (Isaiah 65)
    19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,
    “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
    with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”
    20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,
    “I have been found by those who did not seek me;
    I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

    Old Testament_________________________________________ ___________________________

    Deuteronomy 32:21
    21 They have made me jealous with what is no god;
    they have provoked me to anger with their idols.
    So I will make them jealous with those who are no people;
    I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

    Isaiah 65:1
    I was sought by those who did not ask for Me;
    I was found by those who did not seek Me.
    I said, 'Here I am, here I am,'
    to a nation that was not called by My name

    THEN!!!! When you re-read Jeremiah 31 again:

    31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

    Two two cities (two parties, two different covenants joined as one with the word ... "AND")!

    From Hosea
    Christ..................(Joseph) === will marry? BOTH
    Israel...the Jews ... (Leah) === "I will make with the house of Israel after those days" ... this could be part 1 of a 2 part covenant? ... 1 Samuel 2 "faithful priest" ...?
    AND
    Judah...?????......(Rachel)? === 1 Peter 2 "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people" ... or is this the "faithful priest" ?



    Peter quoting the Old Testament:
    1 Peter 2 (Hosea 2) AND (Jeremiah 31 ???)
    9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
    10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

    AND THEN RIGHT BEFORE JEREMIAH 31:31.....

    JEREMIAH 31
    “27 Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast. 28 And it shall come to pass, that as I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to throw down, to destroy, and to afflict, so I will watch over them to build and to plant, says the Lord. 29 In those days they shall say no more:
    Last edited by Steve53; July 29th, 2017 at 04:32 PM.

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    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



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    The Lord's shed blood is Covenant number 1 for those who believe (Jews or Gentiles)!
    Gotcha.. Don't mix new wine with old. Agreed! We are good on this!

    Now to Covenant number 2: mentioned in both Hosea 2 and Jeremiah 31... right?

    Jeremiah starts out saying a new covenant will be made with Both the house of Israel And the house of Judah...
    But then within the same 3 verses only states the covenant with the house of Israel... What happened to Judah?
    Jeremiah omitted the house of Judah...?

    Jeremiah 31:
    31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
    .
    .
    .
    33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord:"

    Where is the "house of Judah" in verse 33? Weird! Why is it missing?

    It seems to be the house of Judah is eluded to in Hosea 2.... At the bottom in verse 23... the same verse 1 Peter 2:9-10 quoted when talking about the Church! Paul also quoted this as well in Romans 9:25-26 but I'm still working on figuring out the context there.

    It's like saying:
    I'm going to make a contract with Tom and Jerry.
    But this is the contract that I will make with Tom:...

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Edit: Look at this about Paul:

    Paul is also talking about how God might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy: ie... the Church
    with Hosea 2 as well:

    Romans 9
    22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    25 As He says also in Hosea:

    “I will call them My people, who were not My people,
    And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
    26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
    ‘You are not My people,’
    There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Edit 2: Look at the wording in Jeremiah:

    "31 Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
    Could this be the 1st Covenant that Jesus made by shedding his blood, rejected by the Jews, so now it was offered to BOTH the Jews and Gentiles who believe?

    But this is the other covenant that's just with Israel AFTER those days?
    "33 ...But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days..."

    verse 31 would be Christ's covenant ? Before Rapture?
    verse 33 would be the post trib covenant with Israel? During the MK?

    It's like saying:
    They days are coming that I'm going to make a contract with Tom and Jerry.
    But this is the contract that I will make with Tom AFTER those days:...

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    Quote Originally Posted by USCG_Vet View Post
    T..
    I suggest reading the articles again. Also read the topically related articles offered at the bottom of each page.

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve53 View Post
    I suggest reading the articles again. Also read the topically related articles offered at the bottom of each page.
    Will do.
    Thank you Steve.

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