conversation with a devout catholic = pope infallible?????

[BlessedinHim]

They are in bold, it will take a bit to get it all on here. It was over an hour of discussion.

cita: sure

esero26:thanks
esero26 : Say to the king and the queen mother, "Take a lowly seat, For your beautiful crown Has come down from your head." Jeremiah 13:18
esero26 : what do you think?

cita : let me look it up

esero26 : In the Old Testament, the Davidic Kings had too many wives (solomon had 700!), therefore, the King's Mother was chosen as Queen.

cita : I am gonna read this passage in context, that is interesting. They did have many wives, I dont know how they did it

esero26 : they had many wives due to diplomatic treaties with neighboring countries. A wife was given for each treaty by the other country
esero26 : "So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king arose to meet her, bowed before her, and sat on his throne; then he had a throne set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right." I kings 2:19

cita : slow down
cita : lol

esero26 : I'm passionate about this as much as you are

cita : that is ok, I only seek the truth and try to spread the truth as the Lord gives it.

esero26 : so what do you think about the verses I've shown you?

cita : I do not pretend to know everything, for I definitely do not. Or else I would be dead.

esero26 : me too. I just try to spread what I know to others at the same time learning from others as well

cita (): the Jeremiah 12:18 to me, says that the king and his mother have lost their position
cita (): Their crown has come down
cita (): they must sit in a lowly position

esero26 (): Israel was being invaded by other countries

cita (): and this is in part of a prophecy against Israel

esero26 (): Point being: Do you see the Queen Mother's importance?
esero26 (): She is exalted also, she sits next to the King.

cita (): In human standards, perhaps
cita (): but when you look up the queen of heaven, she does not have a very nice way
cita (): I would not want to be the queen of heaven

esero26 (): therefore, Jesus Christ, the prophecized everlasting Davidic King of Heaven, exalted his own mother as Queen of Heaven.

cita (): No, I do not see that in scripture
cita (): she is esteemed highly among women
cita (): and she should be, she was a chosen vessel

esero26 (): Jesus said he came to fullfill the law of Israel.

cita (): the law that was ful fill was the payment for breaking that law
cita (): he was the payment for the breaking of the law

esero26 (): The Davidic Kings and their Queen Mothers serve as prototypes for the everlasting King and his Queen Mother
esero26 (): They go hand in hand. Old Testament and New TEstament

cita (): If God had his way about it, there would be no earthly king over Israel

esero26 (): Did you know that the Kingdom of God is synonymous with the Kingdom of David (Israel)?

cita (): yes, the law was given as a school master to show us that we could not live by it, to break even the tiniest part of it is breaking the whole thing

esero26 (): we're getting off topic here, with the Law. Let's go back to the Queen Mother

cita (): Not exactly, Israel had a human king because they rejected the King of kings as their king

esero26 (): hold up

cita (): the only real connection I see, is that while the humans at that time had to have an earthly king, and God did grant them one, then Jesus is taking back that throne through the royal bloodline of David
cita (): as He is descended from the Davidic lineage

esero26 (): "But now, do you think you are a match for the Kingdom of the LORD commanded by the sons of David?" I Chronicles 13:8

cita (): 1 Chronicles 13:8 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) Public Domain 8And David and all Israel played before God with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets.

esero26 (): Jesus Christ is from the line of David. He is the everlasting King that God promised King David in 2 Samuel

cita (): what version of the bible are you using?
cita (): what that verse says in yours does not match up with what I got at all
cita (): ok
cita (): sorry, there we go

esero26 (): sorry I meant 2 Chronicles 13:8

cita (): ok

esero26 (): therefore, Kingdom of God=Kingdom of David
esero26 (): "He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever." 2 Samuel 7:13
esero26 (): prophecy of Jesus Christ, the new and everlasting King from the line of David. It is only fitting then, that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the our everlasting Queen Mother

cita (): ok, but in this verse here that you gave before, it is talking about those who would usurp the kingdom out of the hand of David's sons, and that is not gonna be
cita (): the queen of heaven in todays world is exalted above what was meant to be

esero26 (): She is highly exalted by Christ, because she is the Queen.

cita (): Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
cita (): but humans have exalted her higher than she ought to be

esero26 (12/18/2007 6:18:40 PM): She is the most exalted CREATURE, since she is the Mother of God himself!!

cita (): She is not the mother of God

esero26 (): Is not Jesus Christ God?

cita (): She was the mother of Jesus by human standards
cita (): Jesus was fully man and fully God
cita (): to say that God had a mother says that God was created
cita (): and He was not created, but has always been

esero26 (): therefore, since God was concieved in Mary's womb. She is the mother of God!
esero26 (): your confusing "mother" with "creator"
esero26 (): Mary did not created God, she is not older than God, or the source of Christ's divinity.
esero26 (): She is merely the one who concieved God in her womb

cita (): She was overshadowed by The Holy Spirit and was found to be with child

esero26 (): true

cita (): see, that is where things split up a bit

esero26 (): God was concieved in Her womb.

cita (): no, the word that became flesh was in her womb

esero26 (): Mary concieved, nurtured God himself

cita (): He was fully God and fully man
cita (): You give too much to Mary

esero26 (): You say Mary is the mother of Jesus, but Jesus is God, therefore. Mary is the mother of God.
esero26 (): "mother", not "creator"

cita (): it is like trying to understand the trinity

esero26 (): Mary was pronounced "theotokos" meaning "mother of God" by the CHurch in the 4th century

cita (): by the catholic church
cita (): the RCC

esero26 (): correct. Since there was no other church

cita (): The pope is not infallible

esero26 (): How are we sure what is truth or not then?

cita (): The RCC is not infallible
cita (): what the bible says alone

esero26 (): If the bible was enough, there wouldn't be 30,000 protestant denominations

cita (): that is because humans are infallible
cita (): oops
cita (): I mean fallible
cita (): lol

esero26 (): Do you want me to show you where the "Pope" comes from in the Bible?

cita (): My bible tells me that if another comes preaching any other gospel to not believe him or her
cita (): sure, show me what backs this up

esero26 (): The Davidic Kings in the O.T. ruled the Kingdom through a "prime minister"...
esero26 (): the prime minister would take full control in the King's absence or sickness...

cita (): There was a prophet usually attached to the king, like samuel was to saul
cita (): where are the verses?

esero26 (): Look at Isaiah 22:22. Shebna, the "prime minister" is given the "key to the house of David" with the power to "bind and loose"
esero26 (): Christ, the King, does the same, when he appoints, St. Peter-the Pope/Prime Minister, in Matthew 16:19, when Christ gives him the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" with the power to "bind and loose"
esero26 (): as we've seen Kingdom of Heaven=Kingdom of David

cita (): let me ask you this, what is the Rock that Jesus spoke of in that same passage you mention

esero26 (): first, do you see the connection made?

cita (): I know that the things that happen in our human standards are shadows of things to come

esero26 (): The Rock is St. Peter himself, the prime minister, who would rule CHrist's kingdom, the RCC, until he returns in glory!

cita (): I am sorry, but that is simply not true. The Rock was Jesus Christ Himself

esero26 (): St. Peter's successors are the Popes, the prime ministers of Christ's Kingdom...

cita (): The Rock was the answer that Peter gave
cita (): Not Peter himself
cita (): Jesus is the rock of my salvation

esero26 (): in the old testament context though, we can see that St. Peter, the Rock, is the prime minister

cita (): He was given power, yes, but I am certain He is not the first pope as you suppose and have been taught in the catholic teachings

esero26 (): what do you mean?

cita (): Peter was clearly sent to the house of Israel
cita (): Are you saying that the Pope came from Israel?

esero26 (): The first Pope, St. Peter, was from Capernaum, Israel

cita (): and who is Paul to you?
cita (): He was sent to the Gentiles

esero26 (): Christ didn't come to write a book, the Bible, He came to establish his Kingdom on St. Peter, so there wouldn't be division over interpretation

cita (): no no no
cita (): Christ didnt come to establish His kingdom on Peter

esero26 (): we need the supreme court to interpret the constitution in order to prevent division in the U.S.A. IN the same way, the Bible needs the Pope and his Bishops to interpret it infallibly by th Holy Spirit

cita (): we are each given the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth
cita (): we do not need a middle man

esero26 (): there is ONE truth, yet there are 30,000 protestant denomincations all claiming to be true, who is right?

cita (): The catholic church today is rubbing shoulders with Islam,
cita (): yes, But Jesus is the way, the truth and the life

esero26 (): if we don't need a middle man, then why did the Israelites in the desert need Moses or Joshua to talk to God?
esero26 (): TRUE. And Christ talks to us through his Pope

cita (): that was before the Holy Spirit came to us personally after the ascension

esero26 (): do you see why the Bible isn't enough?

cita (): no, the Holy Spirit speaks to us today, to me through His word
cita (): the bible is absolutely enough

esero26 (): we need an authoritative interpreter inspired by the Spirit-The Popeesero26 (): 30,000 denominations! Bible isn't enough

cita (): that is because humans have their own agendas

esero26 (): First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20
esero26 (): All Christians need the Pope to have UNITY.

cita (): let a matter be settled among 2 or 3 witnesses
cita (): If Unity depends on the Pope of the RCC, we are all in a bunch of trouble
cita (): the pope today is not leading people down the narrow path the bible speaks of

esero26 (): all Catholics worldwide agree in one teaching
esero26 (): protestants cant agree amongst themselves

cita (): the bible says what it says, and people choose to re-interpret it to get the meaning they want so they can live the way they want

esero26 (): lets slow down here...

cita (): the pope today says that evolution is the way things were created
cita (): the bible says God created

esero26 (): Do you accept that the planets revolved around the sun, DNA, then why not accept Evolution?

cita (): they are in the middle of ecumenism
cita (): Evolution does not agree with scripture

esero26 (): scripture doesn't care about evolution.
esero26 (): or science for that matter.

cita (): nothing in the bible has ever been proven wrong
cita (): the bible is the final authority on all thigs

esero26 (): what is your point?

cita (): evolution does not even make things appear in the order that God created them

esero26 (): God caused evolution

cita (): evolution is mans attempt to get out from under a creator God
cita (): no, God did not cause evolution

esero26 (): evolution doesn't deny or accpet God. It is just science.

cita (): God made everything perfect in the beginning
cita (): all the animals all the fish, and humans in six literal days
cita (): evolution takes millions of years billions of years
cita (): evolution is bad science
cita (): it is a poor attempt by man to explain how we got here

esero26 (): but it is proven again and again by countless tests...let's go back to the Pope shall we?

cita (): no, lets settle this evolution issue

esero26 ():

cita (): man is fallible
cita (): do we agree on this?

esero26 (): do you accept gravity, DNA?

cita (): do we agree that man is fallible

esero26 (): technology, your computer, comes from science.
esero26 (): God gave man INTELLECT in order to study his creation!
esero26 (): that is where evolution comes in!

cita (): do we know everything?
cita (): were we there when God made the stars?
cita (): were we there when God made Adam?

esero26 (): ofcourse not, but our God-given Brains use science to study God's creation

cita (): our knowledge and socalled wisdom is foolishness to God
cita (): we do not know everything, we are fallible, our study in science is flawed in the beginning

esero26 (): ofcourse, but he knows our limits, and science is the best we can do, by studying creation

cita (): God did not create evolution to do the creating for Him
cita (): God did His own creating

esero26 (): if science is so fallible, we would have no computer, cars, spaceships, cellphones, etc. etc

cita (): on the sixth day, the sixth literal day of creation, God took the dust of the earth and formed Adam

esero26 (): do you think God wants us to learn,study, and explore....or just sit back and waste our gifts?

cita (): and then He breathed the breath of life into his nostrils

esero26 (): answer my question please

cita (): God wants us to glorify and love Him
cita (): our science is flawed, everything we make breaks down

esero26 (): we do, when we study the magnificance and complexity of his creation!

cita (): God is much more interested in a personal relationship with Him

esero26 (): so, your're saying we should just not try?
esero26 (): ofcourse.

cita (): I didnt say we should not try to do anything, or that we should not try to understand

esero26 (): so you're saying do away with technology including healthcare, cars

cita (): that is not what I said. as far as healthcare.....
cita (): lets not get into health care
cita (): lol
cita (): unfortunately, the creature is more interested in the things made with his own hands instead of the creator of the universe these days

esero26 (): my final point: I see no problem with what science has discovered including evolution, since what we discover, God made.
esero26 (): Period. for me.

cita (): we did not discover evolution

esero26 (): i'm done with that topic

cita (): it is an explanation given by man to try to explain how we got here

esero26 (): done

cita (): lol

esero26 (): I'm much more interested in knowing the truth of Christianity
esero26 (): When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into the full truth..."John 16:13.

cita (): the truth is God created everything in six literal days
cita (): that is truth

esero26 (): There is one truth, not 30,000. You should look into the RCC, the only CHurch established by Christ himself 2000 years ago.

cita (): Jesus came and died on the cross to save us from our sins
cita (): that is truth

esero26 (): 100%

cita (): Jesus did not establish the RCC
cita (): Men did

esero26 (): I've shown you plenty of scriptures to prove so
esero26 (): Did you know the Bible was compiled in the 4th century by the RCC!
esero26 (): Christ came to establish his Church, on the Pope! NOt to write a book!
esero26 (): His Kingdom=Church

cita (): they have books that are not canonized by some such as macabees

esero26 (): that is why the RCC has the fullness of truth guarded for 2000 years and all the means of salvation.You should look into it

cita (): bel and the dragon
cita (): did you know that the RCC did not want the people to read their own bibles?
cita (): they really didnt

esero26 (): 95% of people were illiterate!
esero26 (): whats the use?!

cita (): that is why they kept it steeped in Latin and secrecy
cita (): so, why didnt the RCC teach people to read

esero26 (): most people couldn't read, they were poor, peasants
esero26 (): all of europe was poor!

cita (): there were many who could read

esero26 (): yeah, the educated Clergy

cita (): that is an all encompassing statement

esero26 (): who were few

cita (): there were poor and rich just like today

esero26 (): most people didn't have the money to learn to read, espeically back then with little communication and techonology

cita (): tell me this, who was the pope after Peter died?

esero26 (): St. Linus, 67-76
esero26 (): a.d.
esero26 (): Christ left his church entrusted on someone to teach and spread the faith with authority, becuase there were alot of people claiming to be Christians spreading lies that weren't part of the apostolic line
esero26 (): Did you know that The Popes and Bishops can trace their lineage all the way back to St. Peter and the apostles!
esero26 (): It was nice chatting with you, I'm getting tired, see you around.

cita (): I am reading about linus and they cant even agree fully about the succession
cita (): ok, may you find the truth

esero26 (): God bless. Remember, there is ONE truth, Christ never left his Church, he sent us the Holy Spirit...

cita (): that is right, the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth.
cita (): not mortal man

esero26 (): one truth, not 30,000. Goodbye friend.

cita (): the bible is the one truth, we should be like the bereans and search the scriptures to see if what they say is true

esero26 (): Bible only=chaos, disunity. Bible+Tradition+Pope= UNITY. PEACE

cita (): the one world religion
cita (): is what you speak of
cita (): Gods word is the final authority for me, it never changes

esero26 ): no, UNITY among Christians is what I speak of.

cita ): ecumenism
cita (): is what you speak of

esero26 (): all Christians following the Pope, the one entrusted with the "keys of Heaven, with the power to bind and loose"

cita (): and what of Paul?
cita (): I will follow Jesus
cita (): not a pope
cita (): not any other man on this earth

esero26 (): Jesus entrusted his Kingdom on the Pope. Its in the BIBLE.
esero26 (): Jesus speaks to us through the infallible Pope.

cita (): The Rock is Jesus Christ

esero26 (): guaranteed by the SPirit of truth

cita (): the pope is a man, and he is fallible

esero26 (): you can believe what you want, I've shown you plenty of parrallels in the Old and New Testament. Isaiah 22:22 Matthew 16:19, go over those and study them.
esero26 (): bye.

cita (): bye
cita (): I have studied the bible for years

esero26 (): then I hope that you can see that the Pope is the prime minister and The Virgin Mary is the Queen Mother.

cita (): The pope may be the prime minister of the RCC, and Mary is no longer a virgin
cita (): she and Joseph had other children, Jesus had brothers
cita (): Jesus is no longer on the cross, when He died, he said it is finished
cita (): the price was fulfilled

Any way, that was the end of that circular conversation. He approached me for the conversation. I hope I said the right things. But whether I did or not, it doesnt appear that he listened much.

[Theresa]

Good job, BlessedinHim! (Yes, I read the whole thing.) It is so frustrating talking to those lost in the RCC. I can't say how many times I muttered, "No!" at many of esero's statements. I hope that his eyes will be opened to the truth.

[scrappergirl]

wow.
one of the things in that which got to me was the insistence the evolution stuff. GOD created MAN first, so says the bible. evolution says that Man was EVOLVED AFTER and FROM all the other stuff...the one celled amoeba that slopped up on shore and grew legs,etc.

the truth is in black and white printed in the bible!

the same bible that this person insists isn't 100% accurate and therefore in need of the pope and the rcc ...then they turn around and throw a few unrelated scriptures up there to PROVE that MARY is co-redemptrix, Queen of heaven and the mother of God.

do they not see their duality??


btw, that whole 30,000 protestant denominations thing to disprove bible-only is widely used by catholic apologists. then when you point out that many different catholics believe different things, and in different countries catholocism is practiced differently, they say that those things are not sanctioned by the 'church', and so they don't count. well if its happening in an RCC and the church doesn't speak OUT AGAINST It, then to me, that's pretty much sanctioning it (acquiescence by silence). its the same thing as protestantism, they just call it unity. what a joke.!!!

how frustrating!!

[Jono]

Wow very flawed reasoning, interpretation, and beliefs. All what I've come to expect from the RCC. No surprises anymore... It gets me all worked up when people say that Jesus formed the first Catholic church. Disgusting really. I dont like Christ and Catholic mentioned in the same sentence... When I look in the Bible I dont see Rome nor the lifestyles of Catholics I see much more Salvation by the blood, the life styles of Isreal in those days, Jesus mediator between God and man. In the Bible I do not see the paganism that can be cleary seen in the RCC theres just such a contrast between the Bible and th RCC.

[BlessedinHim]

to me, the catholic priest are more like the pharisees. I thought Peter pretty much stayed in Jerusalem? I thought it was kinda funny that they cant even be sure who was after Peter, whether it was Linus or the other one. Cant remember the other ones name.

Paul was in Rome!!!!! and he was to go to the gentiles, the fact that the catholic church picks Peter as their first pope is flawed from the get go. Peter was to remain to the Jews. I believe he did despite all the opposition he face, of course in the end He was crucified, too, in a horrible way. Only the Holy Spirit could effect the change in Peter that was wrought, from coward to martyr. Wow, the Holy Spirit is awesome and full of power.

[GettingThere]

According to the RCC...the pope is infallible when he speaks on matters of faith and morals. For a better understanding, check the Catechism of the Catholic Church...available online.
I WAS Catholic, traditional, and seriously Catholic, born, baptised, educated, and confirmed. I had many of the same arguments...until I started to really study. (We won't get into why I left, that's neither here nor there). I discovered that 99% of what I had been taught was totally unbiblical. TOTALLY.
It takes a long time for a Catholic to really see how what they're taught differs from the simple Biblical truth. Keep talking, keep praying.
As far as Catholic "unity"...it's an illusion. There are liberals, conservatives, traditionals, charismatics, etc. It's called "cafeteria Catholicism" and there are as many divisions within the RCC as there are Catholics.

Keep witnessing, keep talking, keep praying! There are many who are leaving, once their eyes are opened.

GT

[Pleye]

Bible only=chaos, disunity. Bible+Tradition+Pope= UNITY. PEACE

This is very contradictory. When both tradition and pope contradict or counter the Bible, then how can you have unity? You can't. You have discord, denial and rebellion.

I find that statement very odd. They apparently believe that the RCC is in 100% agreement with what is said in Scripture. Then again, they did seem to interpret it on their own anyway.

[scrappergirl]

According to the RCC...the pope is infallible when he speaks on matters of faith and morals. For a better understanding, check the Catechism of the Catholic Church...available online.
I WAS Catholic, traditional, and seriously Catholic, born, baptised, educated, and confirmed. I had many of the same arguments...until I started to really study. (We won't get into why I left, that's neither here nor there). I discovered that 99% of what I had been taught was totally unbiblical. TOTALLY.
It takes a long time for a Catholic to really see how what they're taught differs from the simple Biblical truth. Keep talking, keep praying.
As far as Catholic "unity"...it's an illusion. There are liberals, conservatives, traditionals, charismatics, etc. It's called "cafeteria Catholicism" and there are as many divisions within the RCC as there are Catholics.

Keep witnessing, keep talking, keep praying! There are many who are leaving, once their eyes are opened.

GT

exactly!! no different from different protestant denominations!
frustrating thing is...what to think of someone who grew up protestant (baptist, etc) and ends up converting to RCC?
or someone who grew up catholic, left the RCC and then ends up there again...there are RC apolgists out there confusing people and causing them to think the RC stuff is the truth. More like brainwashing to me, though.

[Cd4u_2]

Bible only=chaos, disunity. Bible+Tradition+Pope= UNITY. PEACE

Bible only=chaos, disunity. <---- I agree with this.

Bible + obedience (Baptism, communion, do what's right according to the bible) + fellowship (pastors and members learn and grow in Christ together) = UNITY. PEACE

Sorry, Catholic does not sound any more different than your average church except the Pope have a sayso and authority over the catholic church... but there are pastors/preachers who have a sayso too.

The catholic may seem Peaceful but that's because people choose to stay in that church (They submit themselves to the catholic church) but those who disagree will split from Catholic... just like the splits that occur in all other churches.

[FrankBeMe]

YIKES!!!!

That's about all I can about that!!

[Nova]

I gave up reading it about 1/2 way thru. Regarding the pope being infallable on religious matters, that is a relatively recent teaching. I don't recall the specific date, but sometime in the 1800s it became part of Catholic teaching.

[Jany]

I gave up when I 1st saw how long the OP was; ouch!

The dogma of papal infallibility has no basis either in the Bible or the history of the Church during the first millennium. The 1870 Vatican made the wrong decision! - it wasn't then nor is is it today, valid <><

[BlessedinHim]

I did put it in at first in small bites, but someone edited it and made it a long post. I dont like to read long posts either. grrrrrr

I edited the post to make it easier to read. took out the time stamps and put in red the parts that really were heresy at least to my knowledge.

[BlessedinHim]

Papal Infallibility:
One such council, the First Vatican Council of 1870, recognized the doctrine of papal infallibility. While some non-Catholic Christians regard this as a novelty, this doctrine is simply a full understanding of Christ’s response to Peter, that it was God the Father who revealed to him that Jesus was the Christ.

Papal infallibility does not mean that the pope can never do anything wrong. However, when, like Peter, he is speaking on matters of faith and morals and intends to instruct the whole Church by defining a doctrine, the Church believes that he is protected by the Holy Spirit and cannot speak in error.

The Invocation of Papal Infallibility:
The actual invocation of papal infallibility has been very limited. In recent times, only two popes have declared doctrines of the Church, both having to do with the Virgin Mary: Pius IX, in 1854, declared the Immaculate Conception of Mary (the doctrine that Mary was conceived without the stain of Original Sin); and Pius XII, in 1950, declared that Mary had been assumed into Heaven bodily at the end of her life (the doctrine of the Assumption).

taken from this page

from this, it looks like they invoke the papal infallibility, and it has only been done on these instances involving Mary.

they use it like a hidden ace up their sleeve to show power.

[seashell]

wow.
one of the things in that which got to me was the insistence the evolution stuff. GOD created MAN first, so says the bible. evolution says that Man was EVOLVED AFTER and FROM all the other stuff...the one celled amoeba that slopped up on shore and grew legs,etc.

the truth is in black and white printed in the bible!

the same bible that this person insists isn't 100% accurate and therefore in need of the pope and the rcc ...then they turn around and throw a few unrelated scriptures up there to PROVE that MARY is co-redemptrix, Queen of heaven and the mother of God.

do they not see their duality??


btw, that whole 30,000 protestant denominations thing to disprove bible-only is widely used by catholic apologists. then when you point out that many different catholics believe different things, and in different countries catholocism is practiced differently, they say that those things are not sanctioned by the 'church', and so they don't count. well if its happening in an RCC and the church doesn't speak OUT AGAINST It, then to me, that's pretty much sanctioning it (acquiescence by silence). its the same thing as protestantism, they just call it unity. what a joke.!!!

how frustrating!!

Of Course God existed first. He is the one who is and has always been! God created his own mother. When you say that Mary is not the mother of God you are separating the Trinity. The Trinity is Three in One; where one is you will find the other two. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You can't separate them that's how Mary became the Mother of God because Jesus was God; but God created his own Mother.

[GettingThere]

Of Course God existed first. He is the one who is and has always been! God created his own mother. When you say that Mary is not the mother of God you are separating the Trinity. The Trinity is Three in One; where one is you will find the other two. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You can't separate them that's how Mary became the Mother of God because Jesus was God; but God created his own Mother.

Ummm...this makes NO sense to me. The Trinity is God the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Mary has NO place in that. Jesus told the pharisees that before Abraham existed, I AM...your line of thought would seem to indicate that Mary would have to have existed also. Mary was the mother of Jesus in his human form, not diety. It's tough to explain, but the whole idea of Theotokos makes NO sense at all. If God is uncreated, how on earth could God have a mother?

Please, drop your Catholic glasses and truly and prayerfully read the gospels. Mary is not nearly given the prominence biblically that the Catholic church gives her.

GT

[Pleye]

Just for the record seashell, Mary was the mother of the earthly Jesus.

[Anddra]

Just for the record seashell, Mary was the mother of the earthly Jesus.

Yes, it is quite simple really. Mary was the mother of the man Jesus. He did not receive divinity from Mary.

[scrappergirl]

Of Course God existed first. He is the one who is and has always been! God created his own mother. When you say that Mary is not the mother of God you are separating the Trinity. The Trinity is Three in One; where one is you will find the other two. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You can't separate them that's how Mary became the Mother of God because Jesus was God; but God created his own Mother.

ummm. no.
God did not create HIS own mother. He created the vessel in which Jesus lived in when He was in His human form. Jesus (God's son) already existed, but He was in Heaven with God, rather than on earth with man.

I am sorry seashell, but you can type that same thing a million times and it will not work. nobody here is going to buy the illogic of it. THE TRINITY existed from before the beginning of time. God did not NEED Mary for the trinity to exist, it already WAS. If Mary were unwilling to bear the Christ child, God could have found another way.

[scrappergirl]

Yes, it is quite simple really. Mary was the mother of the man Jesus. He did not receive divinity from Mary.

EXACTLY!
If anything, He received His HUMANITY from Mary. HE was ALREADY divine!!!!