Ive been talking to this man who is Catholic and he says Mary was not a sinner and that you should pray to Mary which is wrong. But I want to know what you guys have to say and to give me some info.
Regular Member
Is Mary "the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity" ?
Ive been talking to this man who is Catholic and he says Mary was not a sinner and that you should pray to Mary which is wrong. But I want to know what you guys have to say and to give me some info.
Last edited by Sing4Him; February 17th, 2008 at 12:08 PM. Reason: sp. ed.
Be joyful always; Pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18)
I'm not sure what you are asking. You might want to look at 1Cor 7
True Colours
Of course it is wrong to pray to Mary. She was not sinless nor did she have any divinity whatsoever. She was a normal human like us.
(1 Tim 2:5) "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
So if scripture states flatly that only Jesus stands on our behalf before God, then it is quite clear that Mary does not hold any such position.
The reason Mary gets worshipped by Catholics is because it comes from a background in idol worship that got carried into their system.
Okay, I'm not Catholic and never have been but this is my understanding by talking with friends who are Catholic and reading the books about Mary in "Lost Books Of The Bible and The Forgotten Books of Eden."
When they (Catholics) talk about "the immaculate conception" they are referring to Mary's conception. They believe that Mary was born without original sin and, so, was worthy to bare God's Son, Jesus. Mary, once weaned from her mother, was also raised in the Temple and not by her parents. She showed great wisdom and knowledge at a young age. When she reached the age of 13, the temple priests needed her to leave the temple because she had reached majority and could no longer live there. She did not wish to marry but to keep herself pure for God. With this in mind, the temple priests found a widower with sons who would "marry" Mary with the understanding that he would not have sexual relations with her. Since he already had sons, this was not a problem for him. So, Joseph took her as his wife but not to lie with her, meerly to care for her. Mary, through her love, devotion, and service to God found favor with Him and was seen as worthy to have His son. This is why they believe that they should pray to her and why she can act as an intermediate with God on our behalf.
I believe that Mary did find favor with God and He saw her as worthy to have and raise His Son. We know that Mary did ask Jesus to perform at least one miracle (the wine at the wedding at Caanan). No where else do we see Mary interacting with Jesus during His ministry. We see her again at His cross. So, Mary was the ultimate in motherhood and is a saint just as we are. But I do not pray to her nor do I believe that we need any other intermediary than Jesus Christ, His Son, my Lord, and my Savior. Jesus made it so that we can go to the Father again and be found acceptable in His eyes. Thank you Jesus.
Point out this passage of scripture to your friend: Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.
47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."
If you notice there is a clear reference to Mary in these verses.
You can also point out Romans 3:23 which says:
'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God'...
Mary was human created by God Almighty. Humans are born sinful because of the fall.
and this states it all:
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away Is. 64:6'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God'...
Member
Here are some scriptures which explains the 'prayer' Catholics use to 'pray to Mary'.Originally Posted by JesusFreak92
It is NOT a prayer.
I have often used this scripture to explain to my Catholic friends how the RCC took a GREETINGS, a SALUTATION from the Bible and turned it into a prayer of idolatry.
Pay attention to Luke 1:28 in particular
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [Mary] thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
The Angel Gabriel was speaking to Mary. He was NOT PRAYING to her! All he was doing was GREETING her. Instead of saying "Hello Mary", Gabriel said "HAIL! Mary." Greetings Mary. I'm here to tell you, you are FAVORED of GOD!Thou are BLESSED AMONG women.
John 14:6 tells us
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
We cannot get to God through Mary, Joseph, the rosary, the candles, the 'saints', the pope, the priests.
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Again, NO OTHER NAME saves..only the Name of JESUS.
To pray to any other person is SIN.
Show these scriptures to your friend. Have your friend read it for himself/herself.
NO where in the BIBLE are we instructed to pray to Mary. Ask your friend to show you in his/her bible where it says Mary was sinless & we are to pray to her.
Here are some other scriptures to keep in mind:
Exodus 34:
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
[Prayer is worship. Anyone praying to Mary or a 'saint' is worshipping her and thus breaking the commandments of GOD.]
17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
Statues are molten gods.
Remember too: You want to draw your friend into the Love OF JESUS.
Though there are a lot of false teachings in the Catholic church, Catholics believe in GOD the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They know Jesus was born of Mary, a virgin, who lived was crucified on the cross for our sins. They know JESUS died for our sins. They know He resurrected on the third day and then acsended into heaven AND is coming again.
Pray for Wisdom and for the anointing of the Holy Spirit be on you as you minister to your friend.
May Blessings from the Most High God be all over you!
Carol
P.S.
books about Mary in "Lost Books Of The Bible and The Forgotten Books of Eden." ...are not cannonized books. They are not sanctioned. They are not part of the Bible. If those books tell Catholics they are to pray to Mary, they're out of line with what the Bible says about Mary.
Revelation 22:19 warns us not to add or take away from the Book (The Bible)
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Last edited by countmeworthy; February 17th, 2008 at 02:25 PM.
moving this down to Cults forum as there are other Catholic discussions in there--
Though there are a lot of false teachings in the Catholic church, Catholics believe in GOD the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They know Jesus was born of Mary, a virgin, who lived was crucified on the cross for our sins. They know JESUS died for our sins. They know He resurrected on the third day and then acsended into heaven AND is coming again.
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Well....the demons know that, too. KNOWING and FOLLOWING the bible are 2 different things, aren't they?
Member
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Yes. However, I pointed this out because many of my friends had told me "I'm not changing my religion. I was born Catholic, you know."
I always told them: "So was I. I'm not trying to 'change your religion. I'm not trying to 'convert' you." Were we not raised to believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?'
"Yes" they reply.
Well there you go. I'm just telling you more about Jesus our Lord and all He is.
Little by little, I explained the power of the BLOOD of Jesus. The Blood He shed on the cross for our sins.
I can tell you after 2 1/2 yrs of sharing the LIVING CHRIST, not dead doctrines, my Catholic friends are not praying to Mary. And one of them no longer goes to the Catholic church. I never told her to stop going to mass.
As she began to read the Bible for herself and meditate on the scriptures I would give her (I'd write scriptures on 3x5 index cards so she could take them to work.) she decided to stop going to mass on her own.
It was the Holy Spirit who has led her out and freed her from the RCC stronghold. This friend in particular is truly, truly saved. I know this for a fact.
My other friends are now praying to the Lord JESUS. They rarely go to mass but still consider themselves Catholic. One of them used to tell me how she used to pray to 'Mary' and 'pray the rosary' every sunday.
When I talk to her now, she tells me how she prays to JESUS. She has not mentioned Mary or the rosary in a very, very long time. I don't get a chance to talk to her or my other Catholic friend often. But I certainly believe wholeheartedly the true JESUS CHRIST is working in their lives.
(btw, these 3 friends are childhood friends..one of them is my high school best friend. They knew me before I got saved. I went to Catholic school for 12 yrs too. God has used me to teach them and draw them to HIS LOVE and the TRUTH. For Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE and no man can come to the FATHER but through Him. )
This is one area of Catholicism I have many problems with. Mary was a important part of how are lord came to be, but it is Christ mas not Mary mas, and praying there to her with a rosary in hand makes me wonder just who is exalted, Most Catholics pray far more to her then our lord him self.Of course it is wrong to pray to Mary. She was not sinless nor did she have any divinity whatsoever. She was a normal human like us.
No denomination gets it right, old world or present, but they don't let blessings of gay unions or teach abortion. To many of the new age Christian faiths should look more closely at these sins against god.
IMHO they need to change some things, the pope another, to much significance placed on him, but I guess I ask what other options are there? I think if you look close at any you will find all have flaws.
God Bless you all
αρμαγεδδων
Aka the Lords Prayer
Regular Member
I kinda laugh at the whole immaculate conception thing. (not meaning to offend anybody of course)
If Mary had to be pure and without sin to give birth to Jesus, then what about her mother to give birth to her? If her mother was sinless, then her mother is the real Mary. But what about the original Mary's grandmother? She had to be sinless too give birth to her mother! So the grandmother is the real Mary. And on and on and on~
It would have to be a giant recursive function of immaculate conceptions.
Regular Member
I'm a former Catholic and Mary has not only overtaken Christ's role in that church but it is now rapidly moving into the limelight in many Protestant denominations. Please look over some of the stuff on this website for evangelizing help...I wish you well!
http://www.eternal-productions.org/catholicism.html
Regular Member
I know the protestant thing is true. My roommate I had about a year ago was talking about how a church in a neighboring town had a dual vacation bible school with a catholic and protestant church working together. She thought it was a wonderful idea!
After talking with her for a while, I found out she really didn't know anything about catholicism. Her answer to the differences in teaching was to pull the students aside with the catholics in their own room, and the protestants in another. Which, when you really think about it, there would be a lot of class pulling, and the kids would get a confused message. Or confused why they had to have separate rooms. Kids aren't blind to these things!
Thank you so much for the link! I have been considering purchasing this book! I guess I don't need to now. lol.
Regular Member
Rinji, you are welcome! You are also correct of course in your earlier post regarding the "immaculate conception lineage" - where does it end? It's been my experience though that Catholics will listen to that kind of logic long before they will listen to any Biblical arguments. I think it's because of the mind set they are raised with. They are taught from day one that theirs is the one true church and everybody else is "lost". The Bible is just not important to them and they even look down on any Bible believers as ignorant. Yet, they claim their faith is based on the scriptures as well as church tradition...go figure!
Anyway, I also wanted to recommend
Roger Oakland http://www.understandthetimes.org/ and
Richard Bennett http://www.bereanbeacon.org/ as other sources for all things Catholic and Emergent. Bennett is a former Catholic priest and brings an interesting slant to the whole discussion.
Good point.If Mary had to be pure and without sin to give birth to Jesus, then what about her mother to give birth to her? If her mother was sinless, then her mother is the real Mary. But what about the original Mary's grandmother? She had to be sinless too give birth to her mother! So the grandmother is the real Mary. And on and on and on~
It would have to be a giant recursive function of immaculate conceptions.
Administrator
If you ask the Catholics on message boards, they will tell you they don't do these things. But if you talk to Catholics in real life they tell you they do these things.
Go figure!!
Regular Member
I think you're right. I don't have much experience with catholicism, but a friend of mine worked at sports wear store. She said there was a man working there that was atheist, and was curious about Christianity, and started talking to woman who worked there that was catholic.If you ask the Catholics on message boards, they will tell you they don't do these things. But if you talk to Catholics in real life they tell you they do these things.
Apparently she was telling him all sorts of crazy stuff like it's okay to have sex out of wedlock. Of course my friend god mad and set the record straight.
Perfect example of calling someone out. I just fear I wouldn't have the strength to do something like that. I'm not good at correcting a point when there's possible hostility.
Also look at the flip side of the coin. There are non-catholic Christians that sort of do the same thing. Like my roommate I had a year ago. She told me all sorts of things she believed, which I knew was wrong. I wondered if she went to a crazy church!
Later I found out that she was one of those people that would mix biblical and non biblical ideas to rile everyone up and that her church as actually pretty normal.
Wow, great stuff in here. It bothers me deeply that they elevate her to co-redemptrix, and I can get a good vision now of the white robe multitude:
Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
I know Catholics have kind hearts and good intentions and given they make up the largest denomination, how many millions of those white robes will be worn by Catholics who finally "got it" during the Tribulation? That's staggering all by itself.
PreTrib Rapture Czar
Mary - "the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity" ?
Cardinals Hoping for a 5th Marian Dogma
To Declare Mary as Mother of Humanity
ROME, FEB. 11, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Five cardinals have sent a letter inviting prelates worldwide to join them in petitioning Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma they said would "proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary."
The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as "the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race."
The signatories of the letter are five of the six cardinal co-sponsors of the 2005 International Symposium on Marian Coredemption, held in Fatima: Cardinal Telesphore Toppo, archbishop of Ranchi, India; Cardinal Luis Aponte Martínez, retired archbishop of San Juan, Puerto Rico; Cardinal Varkey Vithayathil, major archbishop of Ernakulam-Angamaly, India; Cardinal Riccardo Vidal, archbishop of Cebu, Philippines; and Cardinal Ernesto Corripio y Ahumada, retired archbishop of Mexico City.
Cardinal Edouard Gagnon, who died last August, was the sixth cardinal co-sponsor of the 2005 conference. He was the president of the Pontifical Council of the Family from 1974 until he resigned in 1990.
The secretariat of the five cardinal co-patrons released the English translation of the letter, which includes a translation and the original Latin text of the "votum," or petition, that was formulated in 2005 and presented formally to the Pope by Cardinal Telesphore in 2006.
The petition states: "We believe the time opportune for a solemn definition of clarification regarding the constant teaching of the Church concerning the Mother of the Redeemer and her unique cooperation in the work of Redemption, as well as her subsequent roles in the distribution of grace and intercession for the human family."
Ecumenism
Pointing to ecumenical concerns, the petition continues: "It is of great importance [...] that people of other religious traditions receive the clarification on the highest level of authentic doctrinal certainty that we can provide, that the Catholic Church essentially distinguishes between the sole role of Jesus Christ, divine and human Redeemer of the world, and the unique though secondary and dependent human participation of the Mother of Christ in the great work of Redemption."
The text adds that the move would be "the ultimate expression of doctrinal clarity at the service of our Christian and non-Christian brothers and sisters who are not in communion with Rome."
In a press statement released along with the letter, the cardinal co-sponsors reiterated the same ecumenical concern and said the proclamation of a fifth Marian dogma would be a "service of clarification to other religious traditions and to proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary."
The statement added, "This initiative also intends to start an in-depth worldwide dialogue on Mary's role in salvation for our time. [...] Should this effort prove successful, a proclamation would constitute a historical event for the Church as only the fifth Marian dogma defined in its 2,000-year history."
Cardinal Aponte Martínez, one of the cardinal co-patrons said: "I believe the time is now for the papal definition of the relationship of the Mother of Jesus to the each one of us, her earthly children, in her roles as co-redemptrix, mediatrix of all graces and advocate.
"To solemnly proclaim Mary as the spiritual mother of all peoples is to fully and officially recognize her titles, and consequently to activate, to bring to new life the spiritual, intercessory functions they offer the Church for the new evangelization, and for humanity in our serious present world situation."
Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" Come LORD Jesus !
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