Is the Psalm 83 War Next on the Prophetic Timeline?

[sirgak]

Why could't Ps 83 be a response from Isreal to God at the time that Gog/Magog march on them? Isreal knows they can't win against so great an army so they call on God "O God do not remain quiet" ect. Also I always wondered if the Rapture could happen during the begining of the Gog/Magog war.

Ps 83 seems to be Arab Muslims attacking, whereas Gog-Magog seems to be non-Arab Muslims attacking. Two different people groups. Also, God gives the victory to Israel in Ps 83, whereas in Gog-Magog, Israel is helpless and God steps in to directly save Israel Himself.

A Bible prophecy teacher one said that perhaps the reason God steps in to save Israel is that no power on Earth can.

Lastly, the confederacy of nations attacking in Ps 83 are those immediately surrounding Israel today, whereas the Gog-magog nations are farther away, with Magog being to the uttermost north (remote north).

So, Ps 83 is definitely separate from Gog-Magog, and it seems certain that Ps 83 comes first, then is followed by Gog-Magog some time later.

[sirgak]

The fact that God has turned His attention back on Israel during the Gog/Magog war is indicative that the Rapture has already happened. God has never fully focused on both the Church and Israel at the same time. Furthermore, the fact that God has to physically defeat the Russian army by sending fire and brimstone from heaven is one of the signs that clearly mark that the God of Israel is the REAL God. Jesus says "You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe". Clearly, the God/Magog event is one that can be seen and needs no faith to believe that God exists. Prior to the Rapture, there are no signs, no miraculous events of this magnitude, etc, because it is by faith that we believe.

I do, however, feel that it is very likely we will see the Isaiah 17/Psalm 83 war/wars. It appears that there is nothing indicative that God Himself destroys Damascus, so this tells me that God hasnt turned His full attention back on Israel yet.

Just my humble 2 cents....

I agree on the Ps 83/Isa 17 war(s). The Church Age saw the fulfillment of the prophecy of Israel returning to the land in unbelief, and the regaining of Jerusalem, so there's no reason to think Ps 83 won't be seen by the Church as well, particularly since God gives the victory to Israel, so to the world it seems Israel did all the work. The Gog-Magog conflict on the other hand is obviously Divine, and hence outside the Church Age (ie after the Rapture)

[Musclecar1975]

If the Tribulation starts right after the church is raptured, then wouldn't it be reasonable to think that the 7 year treaty could be in the works before the ratpure of the church?

There are two threads on here that address the timing of the Tribulation and the signing of the 7 year peace treaty. The consensus on the thread regarding the timing of the Tribulation is that it will begin immediately after the rapture of the church.

I didn't want to post my question within those threads and inadvertendly high jack them, so I figured I'd post a new thread with my question.

[MrMannn]

If the Tribulation starts right after the church is raptured, then wouldn't it be reasonable to think that the 7 year treaty could be in the works before the ratpure of the church?

Sure. BUT. Will we recognize it? Probably not.
There are a LOT of Mideast peace treaties. They come and go with the season.
Will this one really stand out from the rest?

Certainly I don't believe it will serve as a visible clue to the rapture.


AND one last thought. I think it will take satanic influence to get a muslim to agree to any sort of peace. And that influence may not be available until the restraint on evil is lifted after the rapture. satan may use this impossible peace victory to propel his AC to prominence.

[Mike]

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The AC confirms a treaty for seven years. So not only might the treaty be in the process before the rapture, but it might even already be signed before the rapture. Daniel only says that the AC confirms it not that he negotiates it.

[Chicken5516]

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The AC confirms a treaty for seven years. So not only might the treaty be in the process before the rapture, but it might even already be signed before the rapture. Daniel only says that the AC confirms it not that he negotiates it.

That's right!!

What I think happens here is that the AC will settle down all the parties involved and make EVERYONE feel comfortable with the deal.

I just don't see that happening right now. I think that there will be a war or two before any kind of peace treaty is CONFIRMED....Psalm 83/Isaiah 17 then Gog/Magog.

As Mr. Mann said - we've seen peace treaty after peace treaty come and go. Someone is always coming up with a peace treaty. None of them stick.

But one day one will stick - one that everyone can agree with and one that the AC will put his stamp of approval on.

It could be a peace treaty already written or one that someone will come up with in the future.

[Musclecar1975]

Sure. BUT. Will we recognize it? Probably not.
There are a LOT of Mideast peace treaties. They come and go with the season.
Will this one really stand out from the rest?

Certainly I don't believe it will serve as a visible clue to the rapture.


AND one last thought. I think it will take satanic influence to get a muslim to agree to any sort of peace. And that influence may not be available until the restraint on evil is lifted after the rapture. satan may use this impossible peace victory to propel his AC to prominence.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks, Mr. Mannn.

[Brinkley]

We could still be here to hear the news that an agreement has finally been reached between Israel and Palestine and the agreement will be signed on ________________________ (insert date).

It may actually be announced several weeks ahead of schedule to allow the signing to garner world attention and to prepare for major pomp and ceremony.

[Musclecar1975]

I can definitely see that happening as well, Brinkley.

[Brinkley]

I've also been thinking about the new work by Bill Salus that advocates that a war outlined in Psalms 83 may be on the horizon, followed by the Gog/Magog war of Ezekiel chapter 38-39.

The Psalm 83 war could also include the destruction of Damascus. So think about this possible scenario:

Israel goes to war and defeats the surroundung Arab nations as outlined in Psalms 83 and takes possession of their lands and weapons. In addition, Damascus is destroyed by Israel. Then here comes Gog/Magog to save the day and God destroys them.

Isreal would then be feared and be in the drivers seat to rebuild the temple and re-establish temple worship. Then a covenant would be signed to protect the Arab nations FROM Israel.

Remember, the covenant is signed with "many". If there was an agreement just between Israel and the Palestinians, then why would Daniel refer to the covenant being signed with many?

This covenant could protect the nations long enough for them to re-group and then come back in the middle of the tribulation and attack Israel again in an attempt to seize Jerusalem and try and destroy Israel.. This is also when events turn so ugly, that Jesus told them to not even come down from the housetops to get anything, but (my words here) get out of town!! Now!!

[Musclecar1975]

Interesting scenario. It sound very plausible, especially when God intervenes on Israel's behalf in Gog/Magog. According to this scenario, this would take place before the rapture of the church.

I've always kinda hoped the Gog/Magog attack would take place before the rapture. Don't know if it will, but if so, what a sight it would be to witness God miraclously intervening on Israel's behalf!

[LightOfMyLife]

Interesting scenario. It sound very plausible, especially when God intervenes on Israel's behalf in Gog/Magog. According to this scenario, this would take place before the rapture of the church.

I've always kinda hoped the Gog/Magog attack would take place before the rapture. Don't know if it will, but if so, what a sight it would be to witness God miraclously intervening on Israel's behalf!

The peace treaty that Obama is getting ready for has to be the 7 years or it isn't the right one before the Tribulation begins. For those of you who may have missed this link. It is very informative, beautiful music & art work. http://www.tribulation.com/rapture.htm# Enjoy!

[sirgak]

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks, Mr. Mannn.

Yes, he's da Mann!

[sirgak]

I've also been thinking about the new work by Bill Salus that advocates that a war outlined in Psalms 83 may be on the horizon, followed by the Gog/Magog war of Ezekiel chapter 38-39.

The Psalm 83 war could also include the destruction of Damascus. So think about this possible scenario:

Israel goes to war and defeats the surroundung Arab nations as outlined in Psalms 83 and takes possession of their lands and weapons. In addition, Damascus is destroyed by Israel. Then here comes Gog/Magog to save the day and God destroys them.

Isreal would then be feared and be in the drivers seat to rebuild the temple and re-establish temple worship. Then a covenant would be signed to protect the Arab nations FROM Israel.

Remember, the covenant is signed with "many". If there was an agreement just between Israel and the Palestinians, then why would Daniel refer to the covenant being signed with many?

This covenant could protect the nations long enough for them to re-group and then come back in the middle of the tribulation and attack Israel again in an attempt to seize Jerusalem and try and destroy Israel.. This is also when events turn so ugly, that Jesus told them to not even come down from the housetops to get anything, but (my words here) get out of town!! Now!!

I also read that work by Bill Salus, Isralestine. While I can see that Gog-Magog maybe might happen before the Tribulation, I wonder if it isn't rather inside the Tribulation and occurring at the Second Seal, meaning WW III. If this were the case, then it's possible that Ps 83 happens, then the Rapture, then Gog-Magog.

Of course, while I think the Trib immediately follows the Rapture, if it should turn out that there is some time between the Rapture and the time of the Trib, then we might see (in order) The Rapture, Ps 83, the start of the Trib and then Gog-Magog.

The problem is, the prophecies about Ps 83 and Gog-Magog, while truly they have not happened before at any time in history (and so they have to be yet future prophecies), they don't seem to be connected to anything in prophecy timelines that makes any sense.

For instance, the only similarity between Gog-Magog and Revelation (that I can see) is the call for lots of birds to eat the flesh of men. The problem is, that call in Revelation occurs at the very end of the Trib at the Second Coming of Christ, whereas Gog-Magog has people burning the weapons for seven years, which seems highly unlikely to be seven years into the Millennium after the return of Christ. Rather, it seems the weapon burning should begin either before the Tribulation, or just inside it near the beginning. Gog-Magog occurring at the The Second Seal achieves the latter.

What I am trying to say, is that Ps 83 and Gog-Magog are "orphan" prophecies that don't seem to fit in anywhere in Revelation that makes sense. I felt that since God sends "fire" on Magog and those who dwell carelessly in the coastlands, that this MIGHT be a description of nuclear weapons falling on the USA and Russia. A conflagration of that kind and magnitude makes it sensible to place Gog-Magog at the Second Seal in Rev 6:3-4, for as a result of that great sword, and famine, and pestilence, 1/4th of the Earth's population dies, which at current world population figures make the death toll to be about 1-1/2 Billion. All the wars and battles Mankind has ever fought throughout all of Man's history -- combined -- do not come up to that many people, even adding in WW I and WW II.

However, there is that possibility that the reason both Ps 83 and Eze 38-39 (ie Gog-Magog) seem to be orphans, is that they do both indeed occur BEFORE the Rapture and the seven year Tribulation, and since in that possibility they occur outside the Trib period, they don't get even an honorable mention in the descriptions of what is happening inside the Trib period. This ones scares me silly, because if I am right about Gog-Magog being descriptive of a nuclear war, and if Bill Salus is correct that Gog-Magog occurs BEFORE the Rapture, then that means ... well, figure it out for yourself. Mushroom clouds, anyone?

Does that make sense?

My brother also points out that the time of the start of the Trib period will be when they are saying "Peace and safety" (ie 1 Thes 5:3) before sudden destruction falls on them. If a nuclear war happened BEFORE the Rapture and Tribulation, how could they be saying "Peace and safety"?

[Brinkley]

Good points. I would tend to agree that the rapture would fit in nicely between the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17 war and the Gog/Magog war.

Russia would be signing her own death warrant to attack Israel after she scored a victory like she will in Psalms 83, plus the worry as to what America would do. But if the rapture took place after that Psalms 83 war, then Russia could use the resulting confusion and a severely weakened USA, due to the rapture, to go for the attack.....all to her detriment.

God can certainly do whatever He chooses, but if the weapons of Gog/Magog burn for seven years, I would think that would be an indication that the war was early on in the tribulation. God could just "speak" them out of existence with His Word if the event was at the end of the tribulation and I see no reason in scropture where they would need to burn for seven years into the millenium.

[rapture-me]

I've also been thinking about the new work by Bill Salus that advocates that a war outlined in Psalms 83 may be on the horizon, followed by the Gog/Magog war of Ezekiel chapter 38-39.

The Psalm 83 war could also include the destruction of Damascus. So think about this possible scenario:

Israel goes to war and defeats the surroundung Arab nations as outlined in Psalms 83 and takes possession of their lands and weapons. In addition, Damascus is destroyed by Israel. Then here comes Gog/Magog to save the day and God destroys them.

Isreal would then be feared and be in the drivers seat to rebuild the temple and re-establish temple worship. Then a covenant would be signed to protect the Arab nations FROM Israel.

Remember, the covenant is signed with "many". If there was an agreement just between Israel and the Palestinians, then why would Daniel refer to the covenant being signed with many?

This covenant could protect the nations long enough for them to re-group and then come back in the middle of the tribulation and attack Israel again in an attempt to seize Jerusalem and try and destroy Israel.. This is also when events turn so ugly, that Jesus told them to not even come down from the housetops to get anything, but (my words here) get out of town!! Now!!

this makes good since and several prophecy teachers are looking at this possibility. many have mentioned on here that the trib. starts right after the rapture. i have to disagree. that would imply that we are looking for signs for the rapture when there are none as it can happen anytime. i think there could be a small break between the rapture and the trib. here is my reason. the rapture will be so tramatic to the world and will change the balance of power. it will do things we cannot even begin to imagine. just as when there is an election there is the transition period i think there will be a transistion period leading to the start of the tribulation. imho. of course this is just speculation. maranatha!

[Musclecar1975]

Nevermind.....

[sirgak]

Good points. I would tend to agree that the rapture would fit in nicely between the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17 war and the Gog/Magog war.

Russia would be signing her own death warrant to attack Israel after she scored a victory like she will in Psalms 83, plus the worry as to what America would do. But if the rapture took place after that Psalms 83 war, then Russia could use the resulting confusion and a severely weakened USA, due to the rapture, to go for the attack.....all to her detriment.

God can certainly do whatever He chooses, but if the weapons of Gog/Magog burn for seven years, I would think that would be an indication that the war was early on in the tribulation. God could just "speak" them out of existence with His Word if the event was at the end of the tribulation and I see no reason in scropture where they would need to burn for seven years into the millenium.

I tend to think that the Ps 83/Isa 17 war will occur before the Rapture. Why? Think about it. The Church saw the fulfillment of the prophecy of the rebirth of Israel (ie back in the land in unbelief, Eze 37:7-8, as skeletons with flesh and bones, but no breath, or spiritual life).

If we saw the return to the land, why would we not also see an orphan prophecy also happen (ie orphan in that it does not seem to link in anywhere in the seven year Trib period), especially when the names of the enemies listed in Ps 83's confederacy exactly matches the nations and groups currently surrounding Israel today. Me, I am thinking (and this is just my opinion) that if Israel does indeed launch an attack against Iran's nuclear reactor(s), as their recent positioning of subs, jet flights, and nationwide emergency wartime drill all seem to point to, that this may in turn scare the enemies currently surrounding Israel such that they will say, hey, if they can strike Iran, then what's to stop them from going after us? Also, they might reason that, with so much of Israel's armed forces concentrating on Iran, then those forces are not at home and available to defend the home turf.

For the confederate nations and groups in Ps 83 (and Damascus, Syria in Isa 17), this would be a double blessing: Israel gets Iran off their necks, and then they (the Ps 83 Confederates) wipe out Israel while Israel is engaged elsewhere.

[Brinkley]

1 Thessalonians 5
1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.


As for peace and safety:
This passage is likely speaking of unbelievers who are not concerned about such things as we are and they are thus caught off guard when the Lord returns.

We are looking for the return and will not be surprised. But for them it will be a time of destruction.

Thus this passage is not necessarily about Israel saying "peace and safety" then facing sudden destruction, but rather un-believers saying peace and safety and then facing sudden destruction.

[Musclecar1975]

1 Thessalonians 5
1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.


As for peace and safety:
This passage is likely speaking of unbelievers who are not concerned about such things as we are and they are thus caught off guard when the Lord returns.

We are looking for the return and will not be surprised. But for them it will be a time of destruction.

Thus this passage is not necessarily about Israel saying "peace and safety" then facing sudden destruction, but rather un-believers saying peace and safety and then facing sudden destruction.

That's how I've always interpreted that scripture.