JW Rebuttal Requested

[bobg]

I belong to a football message board (Houston Texans), and the owner of the site is a Jehovah's Witness. This is a copy of the post he posted, and don't know how to respond to it.

Can I get some help?

Thanks for the replies beforehand!

I know that many professed Christians believe that the literal nation of Israel is still in God's favor and at first glance it's easy to see why they draw that conclusion. However to hold that belief raises other questions and actually causes the Bible to contradict itself in many places, especially when compared to the Greek Scriptures. We know the Bible doesn't contradict itself so what can these prophecies about "Israel" really mean?

First off Jesus made it quite clear that the literal fleshly old nation of Israel would no longer be favored by God. Read Matthew 21:42,43 and Matthew 23:37,38. It just doesn't make any sense that they would retain or regain God's favor since they as a literal nation have rejected God's anointed king and messiah Jesus Christ.

The scriptures don't hold out any other provision for God's favor outside of accepting and obeying God's Son (Acts 4:11,12). This is the case even prophetically in the Hebrew scriptures. Read Isaiah 53:1-12 and Daniel 9:24-27. Both of those Hebrew passages clearly show that the Jews were in need of intercession and forgiveness. Could they as a nation reject the Messiah and expect to have the approval of the One who sent him?

The scriptures are clear who became the new nation of "Israel" after Jesus came and restored true worship. Read Gal 3:27-29 and notice "if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with a reference to a promise". This makes clear from God's standpoint that it is no longer natural descent from Abraham that determines who are really Abraham's seed. It's the "belonging" to Christ.

Also Read Romans 11:25,26. Notice that "Israel" is saved not by the literal conversion of the fleshly nation of Jews but by the people "coming in" from the Gentile nations. To get the correct understanding of this you need to take into account Romans 2:28,29 where it states "He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code". Also Romans 9:6 "Not all who spring from Israel are really 'Israel'".

If you read those prophecies in Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc that at first glance appear to be referring to the literal nation of Israel you will see things that are inconsistent with the literal nation of Israel today.

For example in Ezekiel 37 some feel that is referring to the literal restoration of the nation of Israel that already took place however notice it says that "one king shall be king to them all". When the literal nation of Israel was restored it became a republic and is still so today. They are not a nation under a king, especially under the royal line of David. That prophetic king in Ezekiel is referring to Jesus and that Israel is spiritual Israel made up of spirit annointed Christians out of all nations referred to in Romans.

Look at the prophecy in Isaiah 2:2-4 referring to Israel. In Jerusalem today, where the temple was formerly located there is no "house of the God of Jacob," but, instead, an Islamic shrine. And there is no move on the part of Israel or its neighbors to "beat their swords into plowshares". Far from it, they are one of the most violent nations on the earth. They depend on military violence for their survival not divine protection.

All of these prophecies are symbolic referring to the "Israel" of Christ's brothers and their followers.

Also read Hebrews 12:22. This shows that it is not to earthly Jerusalem but to "heavenly Jerusalem" that true Christians look for fulfillment of the promises of God.

[Cloud Watcher]

Read Romans chapters 10 and 11, especially 11:25-32.

[Wally]

Excellent Scripture Rebuttal, Cloud.

Revelation 7 clearly defines them as jews , by tribe.

Verse 9 then describes (raptured) christians saved by faith in Heaven in the presense of Jesus- in addition to the 144000 who are still on the earth.



Again the JWs need to rewrite scripture to fit their theology.

But then what do you expect from false prophets. Their own watchtowers testify against them.

[twelvesmaster]

Again the JWs need to rewrite scripture to fit their theology.

But then what do you expect from false prophets. Their own watchtowers testify against them.

Exactly. Before you engage in any conversation with a JW, you have to set the ground rules. You must agree that they cannot use their rewritten bible as it has changed the Lord's words to a distressing degree. Insist that this person only refer to the KJV since they claim to affirm this translation.

[bookworm1711]

The Jehovah's Witnesses are clearly and absolutely wrong in their understanding of Bible prophecy related to natural or national Israel. They are not alone. Many others are equally mistaken.

They deny natural Israel's place in unfulfilled Bible prophecy.

Consider the following texts of Scripture:

(1) Isaiah 11:11

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall remain, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Comment: this is future, as yet unfulfilled prophecy, and parallels Deuteronomy 30:4, prediction of final full restoration which has not taken place yet, but certainly will.

(2) Isaiah 41:9

Isa 41:9 thou whom I have taken hold of from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the corners thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee and not cast thee away;

Comment: God directly asserts He has chosen the nation of Israel, and He has NOT cast them away.

Many significant cross references given for this passage show this is the teaching of the whole of Scripture. Romans 11:29 tells us that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Other passages which relate to the statement that God has not cast Israel away include Isaiah 42:3. Isaiah 55:3. 1 Samuel 12:22. 1 Kings 11:39. Psalm 94:14. Jeremiah 33:25, 26. Zechariah 10:6. Romans 11:1, 2.

(3) Isaiah 60:21

Isa 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous, they shall inherit the land for ever; the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

Comment: God promises that His people Israel shall be all righteous. This has not happened yet, but it will! A study of the cross references given for this passage in the Bible study tool, Nelson's Cross Reference Guide to the Bible, will furnish abundant Scriptural proof that God will fulfill this promise to Israel. Among the clearest of the cross references given are Deuteronomy 30:6 and Psalm 130:8.

God promises that they shall inherit the land forever. It is clear from 2 Chronicles 20:7 that this promise is in accordance with the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant.

2Ch 20:7 Didst not thou, O our God, drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

This "land promise" provision of the Abrahamic Covenant cannot, will not, ever be transferred to someone else. It has not yet been fulfilled (Acts 7:5), but it will be. Other important cross references in the Bible which bear upon this theme include Psalm 37:9, 11, 22. Amos 9:15. Zechariah 3:9. Matthew 5:5.

(4) Zechariah 10:6

Zec 10:6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again, for I have mercy upon them; and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and I will hear them.

Comment: In the light of such a plain statement of Scripture, it is impossible to correctly suppose that God has permanently cast off Israel when God Himself has repeatedly declared to the contrary!

Among the significant cross references to this passage is Zephaniah 3:14-20. There are many more cross references given in the source I named previously.

(5) Romans 11:1, 2

Rom 11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel,

Comment: Paul was well aware of the irrevocable provisions of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants. Paul asserts that the nation of Israel has not been cast off or forsaken permanently by God. Thus, the New Testament affirms the promises given in the Old Testament.

Jesus, in Matthew 21:43, did indeed announce the postponement of the Kingdom of God, in accordance with Old Testament prophecy in Micah 5:3, but this is not a permanent condition. Paul cites the Hebrew Scriptures and affirms "and so all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26, citing Isaiah 59:20, 21).

I once had a visit from a local Watchtower leader. He offered to conduct a Bible study in my home. When we encountered in the study materials he provided a reference to Isaiah 59:20, 21, or a similar passage in Isaiah, I asked what material he could find that further explained the text. He came back for the next study and said he could not find any material that was relevant, but furnished me a Xerox copy of what he did find.

I furnished him a printout from my computer of the cross references for the passage in question, and asked that he study them.

He did study them, and came back for the next study and told me he had read the Scripture, and he was absolutely convinced that I was right, and he and his Watchtower Society were clearly wrong in the interpretation of Scripture. He said he could no longer come to my home for studies. He said he knew he should leave the Watchtower, but that his family and business were too closely attached to the members of his congregation, and he could not. He said he was glad "he would die like a dog," and did not have to fear eternal torment. He departed, shaking the dust off his feet.

It is a sad story, but true. The Word of God clearly speaks for itself. Confronted by the plain teaching of the Bible, as presented in the cross references available in Nelson's Cross Reference Guide to the Bible, the truth can be known directly. I had not argued the issue whatsoever with him. My Watchtower visitor was already fully convinced. God spoke through His Word. Unfortunately, my Watchtower visitor knowingly rejected the Word of God and the testimony of the Holy Spirit through that Word.

The next time you encounter a Jehovah's Witness, or any other person that denies Israel's proper place in future Bible prophecy, just ask them this simple Bible question:

"What is meant by the expression, 'the sure mercies of David'?"

If they don't know, they have some Bible study homework to do!

Check it out at Isaiah 55:3, and carefully study the cross references furnished for this passage to find the clear answer directly from the Bible itself.

[DerRickster]

Did you know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is in Genesis 5- Genealogy of Noah

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/284/

This is a fascinating read. BTW...since JW pride themselves on the names(s) of God and presumably talk about the ancient Hebrew language...give it a shot.

[voiceoftruth]

Hi All.

Instead of posting statements that state what is wrong about the JW's & there twisted beliefs. I am just going to post some links to sites that tell you all about them, what they believe. The lies they tell, the cons that have made, the many many times they have made prophecy's & not one has come true, oh well you all know the rest anyway. Just go through these link / sites & you can pull off any information you may need at any time for this evil cult.

http://www.watchthetower.com/

http://www.jwfiles.com/

http://www.jehovahswitnessrevealed.c...FQfMXgodNiKdGw

http://mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_wi...ess_index.html

http://www.energeticsolutions.com.au...deception.html

http://www.bcmmin.org/jwstd.html

& last but not least the CARM cult site.

http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm

I hope that you can get from any of these sites the truth, the facts & the information you may well need to come against this evil group who have destroyed so many peoples lives & taken them away from the truth that is Jesus.

God Bless you all
VoT

[bobg]

The next time you encounter a Jehovah's Witness, or any other person that denies Israel's proper place in future Bible prophecy, just ask them this simple Bible question:

"What is meant by the expression, 'the sure mercies of David'?"

If they don't know, they have some Bible study homework to do!

Check it out at Isaiah 55:3, and carefully study the cross references furnished for this passage to find the clear answer directly from the Bible itself.

Thank you everyone for the responses you have given...they are very much appreciated.

Bookworm, could you be so kind as to explain this one to me? It would help me greatly in studying it.

[bookworm1711]

Dear bobg,

The "sure mercies of David" mentioned in Isaiah 55:3 have reference to the fact that the provisions of the Davidic Covenant are unconditional with reference to David himself. They are sure because they will never be changed or canceled.

The Isaiah 55:3 text is quoted in Acts 13:34 in support, among other things, of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (see Acts 13:30, 31), which is in fulfillment of the provisions of the Davidic Covenant. So the "sure mercies of David" include the necessity that David have an immortal heir, "the Man" (2 Samuel 7:19; 1 Chronicles 17:17; 1 Timothy 2:5), who will live forever to reign forever upon the Throne of David (Luke 1:32, 33) here upon this earth over the entire world from Jerusalem (Isaiah 24:23). See Acts 13:22, 23. See also Matthew 1:1, the opening sentence of the New Testament, which identifies Jesus Christ as "the son of David, the son of Abraham."

To understand Bible prophecy correctly, we must take into account the provisions of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants contained in the Hebrew Scriptures, our Old Testament.

The Watchtower Society of the Jehovah's Witnesses, like all false religions and false cults, including in particular the Roman Catholic Church, are utterly mistaken in their understanding of Bible prophecy because they fail to take into account those two eternal and unconditional covenants.

Here are some of the cross references given in Nelson's Cross Reference Guide to the Bible for Isaiah 55:3,

Isaiah 55:3. the sure mercies. Isaiah 41:9. Isaiah 54:8-10. Isaiah 59:21. 2 Samuel 7:10, 15. 2 Samuel 23:5. Psalm 89:3, 28, 33, 35-37. Psalm 132:11. Jeremiah 33:20, 21, 25, 26. Ezekiel 37:24, 25. Acts 13:34.
of David. Isaiah 38:5. Acts 13:23.

The Watchtower Society denies that Jesus is a man now (but see 1 Timothy 2:5).

The Watchtower Society denies that Jesus Christ arose bodily from the dead (but see John 2:19-22; Luke 24:39, and the requirement that Jesus fulfill the promised provisions of the Davidic Covenant as a man; not to mention that Jesus Christ returns as a man, and is called, in that regard, "the son of man," John 1:51).

The Watchtower Society seems to deny that Jesus will reign literally on this earth (Revelation 5:10) from Jerusalem (Isaiah 24:23) for ever (Luke 1:32, 33; Revelation 11:15; Daniel 7:13, 14), not just for a Millennium of 1000 years.

The Watchtower denies, as your opening post indicates, that Jesus Christ will restore Israel to favor with God and they shall dwell in their promised inheritance, the land of Israel, forever, in fulfillment of the provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant, its land promise, and its promise that God will be their God.

Also pertinent to the "sure mercies of David" is the promised restoration of the fallen "tabernacle of David" mentioned in Amos 9:11, a passage also cited in the New Testament at Acts 15:16.

The Jehovah's Witnesses, or the Watchtower Society, would, so far as I understand the literature they have published, absolutely deny any literal fulfillment of what the disciples asked Jesus about as recorded in Acts 1:6, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

The disciples asked a legitimate question. It no doubt was a question inspired by the instruction Jesus had been giving them regarding the Kingdom of God for the past forty days. The answer Jesus gave does not deny the validity of the question; Jesus merely told them that it was not for them to know the time when this promise would be fulfilled. But the important point is that this promise of a restored kingdom of Israel obviously must be fulfilled as part of the provisions of the promises in the Davidic Covenant, as confirmed further in prophecy as found in Amos chapter 9.

Any group, denomination, church, or individual that denies these truths cannot legitimately claim to represent God on earth, for they are in direct contradiction to the teaching of Scripture.

Let me know if I have not covered what you needed to know. If you have further questions, just post them, and I'll be happy to give you the answers from Scripture.

[bobg]

Dear bobg,

Let me know if I have not covered what you needed to know. If you have further questions, just post them, and I'll be happy to give you the answers from Scripture.

Bookworm...you are AWESOME!

Thank you so much!

I've got a lot of studying and meditating to do!