The Crucifixion & Resurrection

[TrueChild]

http://http://kosherjudaism.org/foru.../crucifix.html

Can anyone sufficiently explain the contradictions are shown in the link?

Regards,
TrueChild

[Abba'sLil'Girl]

I'd love to, but I'm having trouble linking to the site . . .

[TrueChild]

Hmm ... sorry about the link. Let me try again:

http://kosherjudaism.org/forum/link..../crucifix.html

[Abba'sLil'Girl]

Hmm ... sorry about the link. Let me try again:

http://kosherjudaism.org/forum/link..../crucifix.html

Thanks. Got it.

Quick answer . . . when dealing with eyewitness accounts of the same event, not all eyewitnesses will record the events exactly the same. One may record a certain detail that others don't feel is necessary. Does this mean the event didn't occur? No. It just means that people are individuals and record or remember details that make an impression upon them.

For example, one of the "contradictions" stated in the website is regarding Jesus' last words. Matthew and Mark record Jesus as saying "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”. Luke records “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.” and John, “It is finished.” Could He not have said all three? Just because one writer does not include what another did, doesn't necessarily mean it's a "contradiction". It's just a different view of the same event from an individual perspective. So, if you and I were to sit down and listen to a speach given by someone, I can guarantee that we won't include the exact word for word statements of that speaker. You will remember what individually impressed you. True?

We could debate item for item, but the bottom line is if Jesus Christ was not crucified and resurrected as hundreds of eyewitnesses claimed and as is recorded by men who went to their deaths defending this claim, then why are we talking about Him 2000 years after the fact? If His body was decaying in a tomb somewhere, then why didn't the Roman or Jewish authorities present the body as proof of His death to dispell the claims that He had risen and kill the rapidly growing sect of Christianity? Keep in mind this claim was not only a problem for Rome, but the Sanhedrin as well. Both had political reasons to prove their position.

Let me ask you a question. Would you willingly die for a lie that you knew was a lie?

[CitySearcher]

In the end, there will always be contradictions that mankind has created to confuse and blind seekers of God and His plan of salvation.

I like to use the example of the change Christ's disciples had. Here were 11 men that were scared to death that this Jesus was not the Messiah they had thought. He came to Jerusalem to become King, but instead He is going to lay His Life down for what? That's what the disciple thought, and many ran away and hid, afraid to suffer the same fate as the man they had loved and followed. The Man who had spoken the Truth to them on dozens if not hundreds of occasions.

But what happens next? A sudden and drastic transformation of spirit and wisdom. These 11 began a remarkable campaign to spread the Truth to the world. These 11 willingly laid down their lives for this belief. I do not know of anyone let alone a whole group of men who will willingly give up their lives if the message they are bringing in made up from lies and plots.

Why didn't the Romans and/or the Jews just produce a body...any body and lie about it? Why didn't they arrest all of his followers and charge them with removing a corpse from a heavy guarded tomb?

One can question the Scriptures all they want, but it still will not change the Truth of its' Words. I would use caution when examining God's Word. I don't believe it serves a useful purpose to try to use the OT to refute the NT. IMHO

[Buzzardhut]

Thanks. Got it.

Quick answer . . . when dealing with eyewitness accounts of the same event, not all eyewitnesses will record the events exactly the same. One may record a certain detail that others don't feel is necessary. Does this mean the event didn't occur? No. It just means that people are individuals and record or remember details that make an impression upon them.

yep
4 Gospels, 4 different perspectives
It's sad the chart's author didn't' spend his energy searching out why they are different
It's obvious the 4 accounts are different
A false cult would cover up those facts, the Bible leaves it exposed and the translators faithfully retained it.

[Veillifted]

yep
4 Gospels, 4 different perspectives
It's sad the chart's author didn't' spend his energy searching out why they are different
It's obvious the 4 accounts are different
A false cult would cover up those facts, the Bible leaves it exposed and the translators faithfully retained it.

i agree with this statement wholeheartedly!

[TrueChild]

I'd like to ask how the "literal word of God" can contain so many contradictions.

I do agree that eyewitnesses "see" different things. However, if those eyewitnesses were "inspired by God", how possibly could they make so many mistakes?

[Abba'sLil'Girl]

I'd like to ask how the "literal word of God" can contain so many contradictions.

I do agree that eyewitnesses "see" different things. However, if those eyewitnesses were "inspired by God", how possibly could they make so many mistakes?

In translation, "literal" simply means that the translation respresents the original text, i.e., it is recorded as accurately as possible to reflect the words and intent of the writer.

Being "inspired by God" doesn't make one infalible. We know that God is infalible, however, man is not. Yet, when one studies the history of how the early church made painstaking effort to ensure the accuracy of the Gospel of Christ was spread throughout the known world and understands that the Holy Spirit who draws all men unto God and teaches them His ways works within the corporate body of believers to bring about the Kingdom of God, then one can trust that God is able to get His message across despite the falible condition of humankind.

Bottom line: Do you trust God to work through man to get His message across? If He is truly Sovereign, then you betcha He can. Question is, are we open to His teachings and are able to recognize His prophets or messengers?

[wife]

you have have to remember that each person was writing to a different group of people.

A doctor
A lawyer
A teacher and
A construction worker
would all write thing different. The fact that they all say Jesus died and rose again is what is important...

[Old 33]

And don't forget that the first of these accounts was not written until a generation had passed since the crucifixion. It's not like people sat down and wrote these accounts down the following week or something.

And each account was written by a specific person or group and was directed to a specific community. So each Gospel's writer(s) chose to emphasize different points...doesn't make any of them false, just different.

[TrueChild]

Do you trust God to work through man to get His message across? If He is truly Sovereign, then you betcha He can. Question is, are we open to His teachings and are able to recognize His prophets or messengers?

Certainly. I also believe that God gave us the intellectual capacity to understand. By studying scripture, my mind and heart are opened.

The accounts are MORE than just "different perspectives" - read the chart and you'll see that they cannot ALL be true. That is the nature of contradictions.

I do believe in an infallible God. I do not believe that God would allow so many contradictions in His work ... which leads me to the conclusion that there is a 3rd party involved who is trying to lead us away from God.

[Old 33]

Let's look at it another way...rather than focus so much on the specific details where the Gospel accounts differ, let's look at the bigger picture at what they agree on.

• Jesus arrived in Jerusalem in preparation for the Passover festival and spent the better part of the week there.
• Jesus gathered with his disciples one last time.
• Jesus went off to pray in the Garden, where he was betrayed by Judas and arrested.
• Jesus appeared before Caiaphas, the High Priest of the Temple, and the Sanhedran.
• Jesus acknowledged he was the Son of God.
• Jesus stood before Pilate and was ultimately condemned to die.
• Jesus was savagely beaten by the Romans before the walk to Calvary.
• Jesus was crucified by the Romans at Calvary.
• Jesus died.
• Jesus was buried in a tomb.
• Jesus was resurrected; the tomb was empty.
• Resurrected Jesus appeared to his followers, including his disciples and the women.
• Jesus ascends to the Father.

That is the good news, that Christ died for us while we were yet sinners. that proves God's love for us. Hallelujah!

Let's not lose focus of the forest in a disagreement (real or not) about a few of the trees.

[Veillifted]

Chuck Missler explains this quite well actually. I dont want to interject because i am still studying the "seeming" discrepency but feel this may answer your question.

Whoever linked that chart forgot to calculate the religious calendar that Jews generally use in some instances as well.



http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/214/print/

The Day of Debt
by Chuck Missler

The observances of Good Friday and Easter Sunday have perpetuated the traditional chronology that the crucifixion took place on a Friday, and that the Lord's body was buried on that day at about 6:00 p.m., and that he rose from the dead early on the following Sunday morning.

There are some, however, that feel this tradition is at variance with the Scriptural record. The traditional view seems to conflict with certain prophetic and legal facts.

"Three Days"

One of the problems is reckoning "three days" between Friday evening and Sunday morning. I was once co-hosting a national TV show which had the famed apologist John Warwick Montgomery as a guest. This issue came up, and John rendered the traditional rationalization, pointing out that the Jews reckoned a partial day as a whole day.

I turned to my co-host and explained, "You must remember that John is an attorney, and that's the way they bill!"

(John almost fell out of his chair laughing - he hadn't realized that I was well aware of his distinguished legal background.)

But the difficulty remains. Our Lord's definitive statement is one of the problems:

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. -Matthew 12:40

The mention of nights, as well as the number of days, makes it hard to render this as simply an idiomatic rhetorical device rather than a statement of fact.

Further, when Paul declares the resurrection of Christ to be "according to the Scriptures" in 1 Corinthians 15:4, if this isn't an allusion to Jonah 1:17, then where else? (Perhaps, in Genesis 22, the three days between the "death" of Isaac - when the commandment came - and his "return" to Abraham may have been the macrocode, or typological allusion, that Paul might have had in mind.1 )

Intensifying this controversy was the "three days" issue at the trial of Jesus.

Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, [yet] found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, And said, This [fellow] said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. -Matthew 26:59-61

What did Jesus really say?

Destroy this temple, [of His body] and in three days I will raise it up. -John 2:19

The same phrase reoccurs in the gospels a dozen times.2 It also seems to frequently reoccur in prophetic patterns.3

The Sabbaths

Nowhere in the Gospels does it assert that Christ was crucified on a Friday. In Mark 15:42, it refers to "...the day before the sabbath." This may be the root of the misunderstanding.

The Jews had other sabbaths in addition to the weekly shabbat (Saturday). In addition to the weekly sabbaths, there were seven "high sabbaths" each year, and the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the 15th of Nisan, was one of them.4

Further, Matthew 28:1 should read, "At the end of the sabbaths ,"5 (which is plural in the Greek), implying there was a plurality of sabbaths that week.

If Passover, the 14th of Nisan, fell earlier in the week, the 15th could have been any day prior to Saturday, the weekly sabbath. "When the sabbaths were past" would, of course, be Sunday (actually, Saturday after sundown), in accordance to the Feast of First Fruits. (Some hold to a Thursday crucifixion on a similar basis.)

The 17th of Nisan

Jesus had declared that He would be in the grave three days, and yet was to be resurrected "on the morrow after the sabbath," on the day of the Feast of First Fruits.6

It is interesting that the authorities, anxious to get the body off the cross before sundown, unknowingly were fulfilling God's predetermined plan, "according to the Scriptures."7

Noah's flood ended on the 17th day of the 7th month.8 This month becomes the 1st month at the institution of the Passover.9 Our new beginning in Christ was on the anniversary of the Earth's "new beginning" under Noah!

Israel's new beginning, the crossing of the Red Sea, is believed to have been on the 17th of Nisan. Also, in their flight after Passover, Israel retrieved the body of Joseph from his tomb. After Passover, Jesus was retrieved from another Joseph's tomb on this date.

The Jericho Journey

Another problem with a Friday crucifixion is John 12:1: "Then Jesus six days before the Passover came to Bethany..." (from Jericho). If the Friday view can be accepted, then six days earlier was the weekly shabbat , and on this day such a journey was legally out of the question for a devout Jew.

Summary

Good Friday is the "traditional" view. The Wednesday crucifixion is known as the "reconstructed view."

The important thing is that the tomb was empty . The authorities made sure that this was indisputable. Indeed, He is risen!

[TrueChild]

VeilLifted ... I'll read your post in greater detail after work.

Old 33:

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem in preparation for the Passover festival and spent the better part of the week there.

If I remember correctly, the NT mentions "palm fronds being waived" when Jesus enters Jerusalem. How can palm fronds be waived just prior to Passover?

I read that as a discrepancy between NT belief and what actually could have happened since palm fronds would not have been available in the month of Nisan. I believe what happened is that the writer got the festival of Sukkot confused with Passover (Sukkot occurs in the Fall).

Old 33:

Jesus appeared before Caiaphas, the High Priest of the Temple, and the Sanhedran

It is extremely doubtful that that happened. Passover is a Shabbat holiday. There are no practicing Jews (now or then) who would have convened a trial on Passover.

Old 33:

Jesus was resurrected; the tomb was empty

Just because the body wasn't found (and probably moved) does not lead one to believe the body was resurrected.

Old 33:

Resurrected Jesus appeared to his followers, including his disciples and the women.

Part of the numerous discrepancies outlined in the chart.

[Old 33]

TrueChild...you're misconstruing my post.

My post identified things on which the 4 Gospels agree. I made the statements general, as my overall point was that in the big picture the Gospels agree on the events of the week, despite differences in specific details.

If what you want to do is debate the apparent discrepancies among and between gospel accounts, then you've misunderstood my post.

[IrishLass]

I can't get either of your links to work, so I can't see the chart ....

"truechild", 5 separate authors in the NT wrote of Christ's death and resurrection happening during Passover.... are you suggesting that all of them (3 of whom were Jews themselves) got "confused" about which Feast it was?

and are you suggesting that the people of Israel would not have had access to palm fronds during the month of Nissan?

[CitySearcher]

Hey TC! I see you have been busy! That's good!

From my perspective:

It is extremely doubtful that that happened. Passover is a Shabbat holiday. There are no practicing Jews (now or then) who would have convened a trial on Passover.

John 19: 13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth,and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.

14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!


The Passover hadn't taken place yet...
The 'trails' would have taken place during mid-week, a day before Passover, at least 24 hours before sun-down on Friday, which is when the Sabbath really began. At this point, (the 6th hour of the day before Passover) The Jews had already delivered Jesus to Pilate for questioning. All of the "practicing Jews" would have been safe and warm in their preastly homes for Passover and Sabbath by the time our Savior's body was placed in His temporary dwelling. (Probably just minutes to spare before sundown)

Just because the body wasn't found (and probably moved) does not lead one to believe the body was resurrected.

The body was heavily guarded by armed Roman soldiers. The stone placed in front of the tomb weighed tons. It wasn't moved by man.....

Part of the numerous discrepancies outlined in the chart.

Again, echoing prior posters, different perspectives concerning the same events do not negate that the event actually occurred.

In response to a previous comment of yours:

I do believe in an infallible God. I do not believe that God would allow so many contradictions in His work ... which leads me to the conclusion that there is a 3rd party involved who is trying to lead us away from God.

I also believe in an infallible God, our Beloved Father in Heaven! Man though is infallible. Please don't let slight 'contradictions' cause you to give up on finding the Truth. None of us here are trying to lead you away from God. Rather, we wish the whole world to embrace God and His Teachings.

I too am also on a never-ending search of the Truth, but I do know for a certainty that Jesus and God are One and the same. They were both here since the beginning, and both of Their teachings are united as One Truth. Now I am in the Refiners fire until I see His Face & worship Him.

May God go with you this day...

A verse to ponder on the wisdom mankind has accumulated through history:
1 Corinthians 3:18-20 (King James Version) 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

[TrueChild]

Old33:

TrueChild...you're misconstruing my post.

My post identified things on which the 4 Gospels agree. I made the statements general, as my overall point was that in the big picture the Gospels agree on the events of the week, despite differences in specific details.

If what you want to do is debate the apparent discrepancies among and between gospel accounts, then you've misunderstood my post.

Yes, I did want to discuss the apparent discrepancies among and between gospel accounts, hence the title of this thread.

[Buzzardhut]

I can't get either of your links to work, so I can't see the chart ....

"truechild", 5 separate authors in the NT wrote of Christ's death and resurrection happening during Passover.... are you suggesting that all of them (3 of whom were Jews themselves) got "confused" about which Feast it was?

and are you suggesting that the people of Israel would not have had access to palm fronds during the month of Nissan?

The Chart