There we go, now I can see the chart! Thanks!
There we go, now I can see the chart! Thanks!
Keep the following in mind, then, about the Gospels:Originally Posted by TrueChild
1) These are not newspaper accounts. These are collections of stories which were spread orally for more than a generation among the early Christian believers before they were written down. It would be like us going back today and reconstructing the stories of Martin Luther King, for example, without access to any video/audio/news accounts...just the memories of those who were there and those who heard from those who were there. As we know from our own experience, memories of the same event - even among a family - can be very different at the detail level.
2) Each Gospel writer(s) had a specific audience they were writing to, and so they stressed different things. The fact that one Gospel mentions something that the others don't isn't a contradiction...just a different emphasis.
3) While you are focused on these specific contradictions, you're missing the larger point...that these Gospels agree on far more than they disagree, and all agree on the main points of Christ's ministry, passion, death and resurrection. THAT is the Good News.
Jr. Member
I agree with TrueChild. We can not regard the NT as reliable if it contains such contradictions. If any errors are found, we must (in all intellectual honesty) disregard the entirety of the Christian Bible. God would not allow such contradictions. And yes, there most definitely is a third party involved. However, I’m not going to rely on a chart of seemingly contradictions to convince me of someone else’s bias. I call on TrueChild to study the four Gospels and make a chart for your self. You should study to show your self worthy of Gods Knowledge. Quit relying on other critics work to make your arguments. There are no contradictions, just a lack of knowledge and understanding. If the NT and its historical record are found not to true, then it is not of God. If they are true; it will hold up to testing, and you will be held accountable for the truths that are reveled to you. If you truly love God and are a truth seeker (“true” being part of your name) you will accept this challenge. I will personally help in any way I can.
I would not rely on Rabbi Tovia Singer when it comes to the NT. He is a critic not a student and as such is not an expert. His criticisms have already been refuted by Jewish scholars that have converted from Judaism to Christianity.
On a side note: Palm trees remain green year round.
First, I think of it this way.... if 4 people went to see a movie and afterwards were ask to write an essay, would all the essays say the exact same thing? I don't think so... each person would focus on certain parts, either what they thought was the most important or exciting.Yes, I did want to discuss the apparent discrepancies among and between gospel accounts, hence the title of this thread
Second, if they all said the exact same thing then everyone would claim that they just copied one another to get rid of so called "mistakes".
The way the Gospels is written show Jesus from different perspectives and give you more insight into His life and also into the writer's reasons of writing, IMHO.
This "it's all perfect or all wrong" mentality just has no basis when you know anything about how the Bible came to be.
Again, these are not newspaper accounts. They are stories which were passed down orally for at least 3 decades before anyone wrote them down. So, of course, there are going to be discrepancies as to the specific details...no one's memories, even with the best of intentions, are that exact.
But, as I noted before, the Gospels agree on the major points, on the important points. These discrepancies that TrueChild points out, to the extent they are discrepancies at all, really are beside the point.
First of all, the fact that a story appears in one Gospel but not in another is not an inconsistency. It's that one author chose to include the story, the other didn't (or perhaps, didn't know about it).
So, for example, the fact that only two of the gospels mention the birth of Christ doesn't mean they're wrong...Mark doesn't deal with Christ's birth, but rather picks up with the start of his ministry. And what are the birth narratives about in the first place, except to announce the birth of Jesus and to declare him to be the Messiah, the One the Jews have waited for. Matthew chooses to make that announcement through the wise men who follow a star to give the baby gifts, signifying his status. Luke chooses to have the angel chorus make that announcement, and places the story in the City of David, a signal to readers about the fulfillment of prophesy. In the same way, while he doesn't describe the birth of Christ, John's gospel sets out the same authenticity announcement by talking about the Word being with God, the Word being God.
But that doesn't make the birth narratives inconsistent...just different.
Now...on some of these other points where there are inconsistencies...I would say, "So What?!" Mark says that Jesus died during the 3rd hour, while John says he died during the 6th hour. Who cares? The point that everyone agrees on is that Jesus died. To my knowledge, there is no theological significance as to the specific time of death, such that the three hour discrepancy in the memories of witnesses 30 years after the fact somehow invalidates the entire life/ministry/death of Jesus.
If you're willing to toss out the entire Bible because 30+ years after the event one author remembers that Jesus died at 9:00 a.m. while another remembers that he died at noon...you just aren't serious about the Bible in the first place, and I can't help you.
In Tent City
Amen, as we see what were construed as contradiction in prophecy in the Old Testament and that prophecy seen fulfilled as specified...
Take the prophecy of Ezekiel and Jeremiah against the rebellious King Zedekiah who rebelled against God after multiple warnings in the Book Of Jeremiah. He was told as below that Jerusalem he would be captured and would not see Babylon.
Ezekiel 12:13
...My net also will I spread upon him, and he shall be taken in my snare; and I will bring him to Babylon to the land of the Chaldeans; yet shall he not see it, though he shall die there.
Zedekiah was indeed captured and taken to Babylon. We read he would not see Babylon. Contradiction there it would seem.
A contradiction it is, until we later learn his sons were killed in front of him and than his eyes were put out (blinded). As God lives, he was taken into babylon but did not "see" it.
2 Kings 25:6.
6 So they took the king and brought him up to the king of Babylon at Riblah, and they pronounced judgment on him.
7 Then they killed the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes, put out the eyes of Zedekiah, bound him with bronze fetters, and took him to Babylon
...We look further to see prophecy of the promised one fulfilled in The New Testament.
When you have a seeming contradiction as shown above,REJOICE !! You have something the Lord wishes to reveal to you!
"This rock in Horeb was typical of Christ" and its yielding water when struck by Moses signifies "that the Mediator must receive the blows of the law, before he could be the source of salvation to a parched and perishing world." ~ Henry Melvill
putting on God's armor
I don't really agree with you Old.... these accounts were by eyewitnesses and after interviewing first hand eyewitnesses of these events.....
The apparent "discrepancies" in the gospels are simply different eyewitness perspectives of the same events- you (esp. as a lawyer) know that the more eyewitness accounts you have, the more complete the picture will be (people tend to notice different things about the same incident).
Not to mention that the fact that the audience you are writing for will affect how you describe certain things (such as time
It's all about perspective.
The first 3 gospels were written with a Jewish perspective- by the time the last Gospel was written (John's), it was being written after the focus of the church had already moved from the Jews to the Gentiles- and it was written from the Roman province of Ephesus ..... does this tell you anything about the "apparent" time differences?
That's MY King ~~~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX_7j32zgNw
Right...but the eyewitness accounts don't get written down for decades after the events they're describing.
How is your recollection of a specific set of events from 1997? You could probably tell me a great deal about certain days, but someone else with you during those days might remember the events a little differently. That's not to say that either of you are lying...or that your stories contradict.
I think we're closer on this, kerri, than you thought...
putting on God's armor
oh- I figured we weren't far very apart on it, I was just saying where I did disagree:
As far as memories..... I think it depends on what we would be discussing....
I have the absolute WORST memory of anyone I know- it's SO frustrating to me.... and yet, I can remember the events of a few times in my life (my wedding day, the days my kids were born, the day my sister died etc...) as if they happened yesterday....
you know... those kind of life changing events just have a way of etching themselves into the forefront of your memory..... I have a feeling that the events that the apostles saw must have blown them away to such a degree, that they couldn't possibly forget them....
Of course they would have each been impacted differently by the things they witnessed. Different things may have stood out more prominently to each individual witness, but overall, I have a hard time believing that they could have forgotten much of what they saw (especially considering the magnitude of the things they saw!).
I feel fully confident in trusting their individual recountings of Christ's life as being accurate ones.up
That's MY King ~~~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX_7j32zgNw
I have been told that the bible is the "literal, infallible, word of God." How can the "literal, infallible, word of God" contain direct contradictions?Old 33: 1) These are not newspaper accounts. These are collections of stories which were spread orally for more than a generation among the early Christian believers before they were written down. It would be like us going back today and reconstructing the stories of Martin Luther King, for example, without access to any video/audio/news accounts...just the memories of those who were there and those who heard from those who were there. As we know from our own experience, memories of the same event - even among a family - can be very different at the detail level.
Dismissing the contradictions as "different viewpoints spoken for different audiences" sidesteps answering the contradiction head on.
Direct contradictions: Jesus crucified on the 15th of Nisan (as claimed by Matthew, Mark and Luke) or on the 14th of Nisan (as claimed by John).
The day of his death is a 'foundation' of why Jesus is claimed to be the Messiah. Missing a day is a HUGE mistake.
... as far as finding my "own" mistakes in the gospels and not relying on scholars ... that is an interesting view to take while discussing scripture. How many people in this forum have the time and luxury to become biblical scholars, in their own right, while raising a family and working full-time?
That said, I HAVE found discrepancies (many of them) in my own research of the bible. I will post it separately in this thread.
Regards,
TrueChild
Here's a simple one regarding the field Abraham bought to bury his dead ... where Jacob was buried. Note the underlined words.
Genesis 7:8 and he said to them, "If it is your wish that I remove my dead for burial, you must agree to intercede for me with Ephron son of Zohar.
Genesis 23:19 And Abraham buried his wife Sarah in the cave of the field of Machpelah, facing Mamre - now Hebron - in the land of Canaan.
Genesis 49:29-30: Then he instructed them, saying to them, "I am about to be gathered to my kin. Bury me with my fathers in the cave which is in the field of Ephron the Hittite, 30: the cave which is in the field of Machpelah, facing Mamre, in the land of Canaan, the field that Abraham bought from Ephron the Hittite for a burial site."
Genesis 50:12: Thus his sons did for him as he had instructed them. His sons carried him to the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, the field near Mamre, which Abraham had bought for a burial site from Ephron the Hittite.
Acts 7:15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, 16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.
My Analysis:
In the Tanakh, Abraham bought a field in Hebron, from Ephron the Hittite, son of Zohar, for burial. Jacob was buried in that same place.
In the NT, Abraham bought a sepulchre in Sychem from the sons of Emmor, where Jacob was buried.
Ephron the Hittite is a son of Zohar. He is not the son of Emmor. Notice also that the Tanakh is very very specific when it says Abraham bought the land from Ephron, not from ‘Ephron and his brothers’ (a plurality).
Second, Hebron and Sychem are not the same place. See http://biblia.wiara.pl/elementy/M003.jpg to see where Sychem and Hebron are. The map shows that Sychem is far north of Hebron (Hebron is just to the west of the Dead Sea)
Since this is a irrefutable fact of a mistake in the NT. It proves the NT is not the “infallible, word of God” because God does not make mistakes.
The writers and translators of Acts could not have been “divinely inspired” because they make a clear error in identifying
** who the land was bought from (Ephron, son of Zohar vs. sons of Emmor),
** stating the sellers were a plurality (sons of Emmor) when the seller was a single person (Ephron), AND
** the wrong location (Sychem and Hebron are different places).
One other mistake I'll write about in the next few days is the diabolically opposed accounts as to the timeline immediately following Jesus' birth [in anticipation that the above very real, very clear mistake is "pooh-pooh'd" because it isn't a direct salvation issue (i.e, directly involved Jesus).]
Regards,
TrueChild
True Child; This iis an old argument, try something new. If you really belive you would not ask such a basic question. Maybe you should follow the gnostics.
In Tent City
I understand what you are looking for TC, you know i have my head in several other threads here trying to answer some of your questions
As you know me in real life TC i need to focus on one thread at a time
Food for thought until i can add more value to this thread :
The Babylonian Talmud records that for the last forty years before the Second Hurban (destruction of the Temple), the red cord around the neck of the scapegoat failed to change color. The temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. Forty years before that would have been just about the time Messiah Jesus offered the ultimate sacrifice. This could explain why God was no longer interested in scapegoats.
"This rock in Horeb was typical of Christ" and its yielding water when struck by Moses signifies "that the Mediator must receive the blows of the law, before he could be the source of salvation to a parched and perishing world." ~ Henry Melvill
Its not just the gospels.....minor contradictions abound throughout;
II Kings tells us that Jehoiachin became king when he was eighteen while II Chronicles alleged that he became King at age eight:
II Kings 24:8
Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became King and he reigned three months in Jerusalem
II Chronicles 36:9
Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem.
The age Ahaziah ascended the throne;
II Kings 8:26
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem.
II Chronicles 22:2
Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem.
Ahaziah took over from his father, Jehoram, who had just passed away - at the age of forty! (II Chronicles 21:20) Thus according to II Chronicles Ahaziah was two years older than his own father!
How many foremen did Solomon use in building the temple?
I Kings 5: 16 he is said to have used 3,300 of them, while in II Chronicles 2:18 he was suppossed to have used 3,600. Thus we have a contradiction of 300 people.
How many stalls did Solomon had for his chariot horses? I Kings 4:26 said there were 40,000 stalls while II Chronicles 9:25 said there was only 4,000.
What was the actual capacity of the tank built by Solomon? I Kings 7:26 said that its capacity was 2,000 baths while II Chronicles 4:5 contradicts this by mentioning that its capacity was 3,000 baths!
Man was created after the plants. Gen.1:12, 26.
Man was created before the plants. Gen.2:5-9.
The birds were created out of the water. Gen.1:20.
The birds were created out of the land. Gen.2:19.
The animals were created before man. Gen.1:24-26.
The animals were created after man. Gen.2:19.
God encouraged reproduction. Gen.1:28.
He said it was an unclean process. Lev.12:1-8 (Note that bearing a daughter is more unclean than bearing a son).
Adam was to die the day he ate the forbidden fruit. Gen.2:17.
Adam lived 930 years. Gen.5:5.
The name of "The Lord" was known in the beginning. Gen.4:26; Gen.12:8; Gen.22:14; Gen.26:25.
The name of "The Lord" was not known in the beginning. Ex.6:3.
There are many others. Whats my point?
Point is these can be answered in many different ways, but do not affect the over-all message in any way.
Add to that the fact that God answers to NO man, and you have a real problem in "judging" his word. I would say that any apparent contradiction would be something God would not answer to you, me, or anyone else for, even should they be brazen enough to ask.
Question is, do you have faith or not?? (Eph 2:8)
Last edited by LaMontre; April 26th, 2007 at 01:28 PM.
try this
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/crucifix.html
In Tent City
Interesting this chart came up. Jack Kelley wrote an article that answers most of the so called contradictions this rabbi attempts to point out.
I would also like to point out this Rabbi who designed the "chart", tries to present contradiction in his chart, but doesnt point out how he is misleading the reader by mixing gergorian and solar calendar dates in a deliberately confusing way.
For a better understanding of the Jewish calendar that the Rabbi who designed the chart above references please read:
Article by Jack Kelley from Raptureready.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Selah » Tough Questions Answered
In Matthew 12:38 Jesus is asked for a sign that He's the promised Messiah. The religious officials had just accused Him of using the power of Satan to perform His miracles, and so He described the only sign they would see. "Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish," He said, "So will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (Matt. 12:40)." By this He meant that because their hearts were hard they would only know for sure that He was their Messiah after they had killed Him, but His response resulted in a 2000 year controversy surrounding the time of His death.
What's a Sabbath?
Actually the controversy exists largely among gentile believers. Most Jews familiar with their religion figured it out long ago. But to a gentile ignorant of the Jewish calendar, the phrase in John 19:31 identifying the day after the Crucifixion as a special Sabbath meant that Jesus had to have been crucified on a Friday, because even gentiles know that the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday. Many otherwise competent resources (such as the Study Bible I use) make that mistake. And everyone agrees that He rose again on Sunday. There isn't any way you can put three days and three nights between Friday afternoon and Sunday morning. Hence the controversy.
So let's get it straight. Sabbath means holy day. There is one every Saturday in Israel, but there are also several during the year that are date specific. That means they are always observed on a specific calendar date, regardless of the day. They're like our Christmas. It always comes on the 25th of December no matter what day of the week that happens to be.
The special Sabbath John referred to is the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and it's a date specific holy day; always observed on the 15th of the month they call Nisan, which corresponds to March/April on our calendar. So the first thing we learn is that the special Sabbath mentioned in John 19:31 wasn't a Saturday.
In fact there are three special Sabbaths in the month of Nisan alone; Passover on the 14th, the Feast of Unleavened Bread which begins on the 15th and runs through the 22nd, and the Feast of First Fruits on the Sunday morning following Passover. All have both a historical and prophetic purpose and like all days in the Jewish calendar they begin at sundown, following the pattern of Genesis 1. (This also confuses Gentiles since our day begins at midnight.)
The Passover Lamb
But it gets still more complex. The next issue we have to address is the sequence of events in the week we call Holy Week. Jesus came to fulfill the prophecies of the Passover Lamb. Here's what that means. In Exodus 12 where the Passover was ordained, God told the Israelites to select a lamb on the 10th day of the month and inspect it for defects until the 14th. This means through the end of the 13th. Then at twilight they were to slaughter and roast it, eating it that same evening. Using some of its blood they were to paint their door posts red to protect them from the plague coming upon Egypt at midnight.
Following our calendar, these events would have all occurred on the night of the 13th but for the Jews the 14th began at twilight, when the sun set, and so it was already the 14th when they killed and consumed the Passover lamb.
The only day Jesus ever allowed the people to hail Him as King was on the day we call Palm Sunday. He did this to fulfill the selection process for the Passover Lamb. When the officials told Him to quiet His disciples, He said that if they became quiet, the very stones would cry out (Luke 19:40). For this was the day ordained in history. It was the day He officially became the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world. It was 483 years to the day from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet. (Daniel 9:25) A little while after the officials spoke with Him, He condemned Jerusalem to utter destruction because they did not recognize the day of His visitation (Luke 19:41-44) As we'll see it was the 10th day of the month.
The next three days were filled with the most aggressive debate and confrontation with the officials in His entire ministry, beginning with the Temple Cleansing. He was being inspected for any doctrinal spot or blemish that would disqualify Him as the Lamb of God. They found none.
Tradition, Tradition
Some years before the birth of Jesus the Passover celebration had been changed and in the Lord's time called for a brief ritual meal of lamb, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs (horseradish) to begin the 14th followed by a great and leisurely festival meal on the 15th, when the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins. This tradition is still followed today.
The 14th became known as Preparation Day (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:31), because on it they made ready for the great feast day beginning at sundown. Matthew identifies the day after the Crucifixion as the day after Preparation Day (27:62) so all four Gospels agree. Jesus died on Preparation day, the 14th of their month Nisan, which is Passover. He ate the ritual meal with His disciples in the Upper Room, and then was arrested, tried, convicted, and put to death; all on Passover. He had to be, in order to fulfill the prophecies of the Passover Lamb.
So just like the Lord had commanded in Exodus 12, He was selected on the 10th, inspected on the 11th, 12th, and 13th, and executed on the 14th of Nisan.
How Do We Know This?
A little over 100 years ago a believer named Robert Anderson was head of Scotland Yard's investigative division. He became intrigued by the three days and three nights issue and enlisted the help of the London Royal Observatory to investigate the problem since astronomers can locate the exact position of the planets and stars on any date in history. Since Passover always falls on the 14th, and since the Jewish calendar is lunar (moon) rather than solar (sun) oriented, there is always a full moon on Passover. This fulfills Genesis 1:14.
Plotting the course of the Sun and Moon they documented the day and date of every full moon. The Royal Observatory discovered that the first Palm Sunday was the 10th of Nisan. Passover, the 14th, was therefore a Thursday and Resurrection Morning was also a Sunday, the 17th. From Thursday to Sunday there are three days and three nights. Here's how it works. It's a little confusing to our way of thinking but read carefully and you'll see that it makes sense.
As I've said, He had to die on Passover to fulfill the prophecy. Early that Thursday morning the Jewish leadership decided to kill Him. His fate was sealed. (Matt. 27:1 By law He had to be off the cross and in the ground before sundown. (He actually died about 3 PM and was laid in the tomb immediately.) So Thursday was day one. Because in Jewish reckoning the night precedes the day, at sundown it became Friday the 15th, night one, and the special Sabbath John mentioned began. At sunrise it was Friday day, day two. The next sundown brought Saturday night the 16th, night two, and the regular Sabbath began. As of sunrise it was Saturday day, day three. At sundown on Saturday it became Sunday night the 17th, night three, and before sunrise Jesus rose from the tomb. Three days and three nights. When the women arrived to anoint His body at sunrise, He was already gone.
So in the week Jesus died two Sabbaths that permitted no work were observed back to back: The Feast of Unleavened Bread on Friday the 15th, and the regular weekly Sabbath on Saturday the 16th. In Matthew 28:1 we read that at dawn on the first day of the week (Sunday the 17th) the women who were close to Jesus went to look at the tomb. Luke 24:1 tells us they were going to anoint His body for burial. The two Sabbaths had prevented them from doing so earlier. But He wasn't there. He had risen. Being the Sunday after Passover, at the Jewish Temple it was Feast of First Fruits. At the Empty Tomb it was Resurrection Morning.
Some argue that this view doesn't permit three full days and three full nights in the tomb but that's not what the Scripture says. It simply says three days and three nights. If you move his death up to Wednesday like some teach to get three full days you violate the Passover Lamb prophecies. The Thursday date is the only one that will accommodate both the Passover Lamb and the three day three night prophecies. Selah 4/8/07
"This rock in Horeb was typical of Christ" and its yielding water when struck by Moses signifies "that the Mediator must receive the blows of the law, before he could be the source of salvation to a parched and perishing world." ~ Henry Melvill
How does one get around 3 books saying he died on the 15th and one book says the 14th?
We don't try to 'get around' it. At least most of us don't. We must have Faith, and look beyond what mankind has done. Look unto what the Father has done. He is beyond written words and theories of man. He brought us a Way of Salvation, because He was displeased with the sacrifices of man, because they had become empty and meaningless. He knew that these vain sacrifices could not keep atoning for the sins of the Jews, let alone the Gentiles. He had but one choice, I believe, to show not only His Perfect Love towards His Creation, but to show us an example of a true Sacrifice. This through the blood of His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, who willingly made Himself a Perfect Sacrifice for all of mankind. This was an agreement with the One. God, Jesus, His Spirit, all as one, have worked out this plan of redemption not only for the Gentiles, but to the Jews alike. Our Lord, our God, our Maker, wishes all to follow this path of Redemption, and to overlook the pitfalls of man's wisdom, and escape the snares of Lucifer.
You can disregard this post as just another one of those pitfalls if you wish, but I do not have any other motive to serve my time doing this, other than to help spread what I know and feel is the Truth of God.
Words will always fail us, but His Word, His true Word will remain, and any indiscretion and/or contradictions will be dealt with by Him and Him alone. For now and forever, I will put my trust in Him over the words and thoughts of mankind. I will pray that you can do the same, and that God will reveal Himself to you more each day.
In Him, -CS
PreTrib Rapture Czar
Good Post!
Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" Come LORD Jesus !
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one thing I noticed when reading this thread was that someone said somethign like , "If you really believed you wouldn't ask these questions."
My mouth flew open. Come on, we shouldn't have to check our intellect at the door to be Christians. Asking questions is GOOD. Finding the TRUTH is GOOD.
If the Bible is God's inerrant word, literally....HE (God) I'm sure isn't worried about us questioning it. He's bigger than that.
Now, what I can't figure out (never could) - is how some people can say over and over that there are no errors or contradictions in the Bible.....like the day mentioned by the OP - when it's way too easy to point the finger at MANY. Do we have to take every single word of the BIble literally to be saved? If so, we are in trouble, because every word of the Biblical canon does not agree with every other word of the canon....as the OP clearly pointed out.
Just something that's always bugged me. I think it's why so many Christians are considered anti-intellectual. I also think many of the explanations that are given for the contradictions are 'justifying"....and sometimes a real LEAP.
Last edited by maryr_32; June 5th, 2007 at 11:51 AM. Reason: left out a thought!!
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