The Biblical Argument for the Rebuilding of Babylon *Merged*

[Tres Wright]

Please consider:

Some might ask, "If the 'whore' is Jerusalem, how could the 'beast' be Nero Caesar, from Rome? Would not the "beast" be someone who rules over Jerusalem? The answer is that Caesar DID rule over Jerusalem. The highest religious authorities in Jerusalem, and all the Jews living in Jerusalem, even admitted that Caesar is their king (John 19:15).

You didn't provide a link, but that blurb sounds like an amillenial view. The amillenialists believe that all prophecy has already been fulfilled (IE, the whore was ancient Jerusalem and the beast was Caeser) as of 70 AD and that we're living in the MK. Obviously the participants of this board do not subscribe to those beliefs

[Notindarkness]

A city can be built in a few months, with enough money and manpower. Joel Rosenberg states just this in his book "Epicenter". Considering this will be the center of world wealth, and rich ptb, it is far from inconceivable that this city will be able to be constructed in little time.

Don't forget all the Oil that is in Iraq that spells $$$

[Rapture Dave]

The Bible also mentions Gehenna (a literal garbage dump site) as the place unbelievers go when they die, which everyone agrees is used metaphorically for Hell, and not referring to the literal site.

I think Revelation uses the name Babylon to refer to an empire in the last days that will exhibit the same characteristics of power, pride, and luxury exhibited by ancient Babylon. It will be the same type of empire, but existing in a different time and run by different people, so I see no reason why it can't be in a different location as well - is an empire defined by its location? For an empire to "re-emerge" does it have to be in the same geographical position for it to be a valid re-emergence? That strikes me as quite arbitrary. I think what makes Babylon Babylon is its characteristics, not its coordinates.

[ATYCLB]

Given that the REAL CITY of Babylon is just ruins today, with no news of any immediate change in that status,

There are ten pages of interesting things concerning Babylon here:
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=19189

and the cost and time involved in making it ready to be the "capital of the NWO" (10-20 years),

If the rapture happened today and the covenant confirmed tomorrow, there would
still be more than enough time for it to happen. The world can change dramatically
in less than seven years. How much has it changed since September 11, 2001?

Time to get on with life, serve, tell others about Jesus

We should be doing that anyway. If any Christian has life on hold waiting for the
rapture, they really don't have a grasp on what and who we're called to be in the
first place.

Good job ATLB. Your strong argument has really ruined my day!!!!

I'm sorry that a few pics and a couple of links on a discussion board ruined your day
and caused you so much grief.

For what it's worth, that "strong argument" included me saying that "The pieces are falling
into place now. I don't think it really reaches its height of power until after the rapture and
during the trib."

Don't give up! I think the literal Babylon interpretation is wrong. Seeing the video of Babylon brought this home to me. Do some google searches of other web sites and you will find lots of other interpretations of what Revelation means when it says "Babylon".

There is spiritual Babylon and there is physical Babylon.

From The Footsteps of the Messiah by Arnold Fruchtenbaum:

In verse 15, John interprets the meaning of the many waters over which the great harlot rules, saying it refers to the world population. Again, in prostituting the religion, the harlot moved from serving to ruling, and rules the world population for the first half of the Tribulation.

Verses 16-17 go on to describe the destruction of Mystery Babylon. The world religious system of the first half of the Tribulation will be destroyed in the middle of the Tribulation by the Antichrist and his allied kings (v. 16). Unknowingly, they carry out God's will in the matter (v. 17).

Finally, in verse 18, it is stated that the headquarters of Mystery Babylon will be the city of Babylon. Chapter 18 then details the destruction of the city itself as part of the Campaign of Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation.

Scripture is clear that physical Babylon is in the land of the Chaldeans:

Jer 50:24 I have laid a snare for thee, and thou art also taken, O Babylon, and thou wast not aware: thou art found, and also caught, because thou hast striven against the LORD.
Jer 50:25 The LORD hath opened his armory, and hath brought forth the weapons of his indignation: for this is the work of the Lord GOD of hosts in the land of the Chaldeans.

Where is the "land of the Chaldeans"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_Dynasty


The Medes (the modern day Kurds) will play a role in the destruction of physical Babylon:

Isaiah 13:17-22

Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

Jeremiah 51:11-12

Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

Set up the standard upon the walls of Babylon, make the watch strong, set up the watchmen, prepare the ambushes: for the LORD hath both devised and done that which he spoke against the inhabitants of Babylon.

More information about the Medes, the modern day Kurds, can be found here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...urdprofile.htm



And what of spiritual Babylon?

Just the tip of the iceberg, but consider the following:

Keeping Christianity alive in Iraq
11-20-07
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/me...aq.christians/

"Peace for all believers," the congregation at the Sacred Heart church in Eastern Baghdad sings, as the Patriarch, Emmanuel III Delly, holds a heavy cross in his hands, his eyes closed.

He seems focused on the hard work that lies ahead.

Pope Benedict XVI recently appointed the Patriarch of the Chaldean Church for Babylon, an ancient denomination with roots in the age of Jesus Christ, a cardinal.

Emmanuel III is the first Iraqi to be elevated to that status and will receive his ordination on November 24 in Rome.

That means somewhere down the line, Emmanuel III could become Pope.

More . . .

Churches decry bishop’s murder
5-2-08
http://www.anglicanjournal.com/issue...ishops-murder/

Until the US-led military action in 2003, Christians accounted for roughly 3 per cent of Iraq’s mainly Muslim population, or about 700 000 people. Approximately 70 per cent of them belong to the Chaldean church, which follows the ancient Chaldean rite but is in union with the Roman Catholic Church.

Chaldean is a form of Aramaic, spoken at the time of Jesus. The Chaldeans converted to Christianity in the first century A.D., and the Chaldean branch of Christianity has been in Iraq since then.

More . . .

And upon her forehead was a name written,
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Definition of Mystery: a religious truth that one can know only by revelation and cannot fully understand

We can understand this.

Who is the mother of harlots and abominations?

The whore's full name is:

MYSTERY, (pause)
BABYLON THE GREAT, (pause)
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH

Think of it like this:

Her first name is MYSTERY.

Her second name is BABYLON THE GREAT.

BABYLON THE GREAT is a qualifier. It tells you a bit more about MYSTERY.
It's like saying, "the blue sky" where "blue" modifies "sky". It tells us a little
more about her.

Her third name is THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
This tells us much, much more about her. This tells us that she isn't an offspring
of harlots and abominations, false religious systems, etc., of the earth.

She is the mother of those things.

America, Jerusalem, Dubai . . . none are the mother of those things.

Wickedness existed long before they showed up.

Where was wickedness originally scattered across the nations from?

Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
Gen 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar.
Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
Gen 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Hmmm everyone He has an interesting point. A world center for commerce in the 21st century need not resemble NYC or Chicago with a sprawling urban landscape. We have the technology today (just look at Wallstreet) that if the NWO desired to for symbolic reasons and a gumption from Satan to setup head quarters in Babylon and run all the worlds finances and commerce they could. I forgot that today we are an electronic and internet based society no longer do we need a series of large buildings in order to run the world. Babylon can still be the center of world commerce without looking like Dubai I wonder why ive never seen it like this before

Good points.


For those who think that there are many years to go before Babylon can become
the world center of government and finances . . . in a post rapture world, Saddam's
palace in Babylon or that new super embassy could easily house both.

As a result of advanced technology, either could easily become a stronghold for a
world dictator, a world government and the hub of international finances.

All cuddled up in the arms of the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.

[PrincessofHeaven]

could mystery babylon be the whole earth? with a head quarters somewhere, say iraq?

[Last Samurai]

[QUOTE=ClarionCall;1173883]All,

I just watched a video on NBC about the US giving $700,000 to help protect the original ruins of Babylon. Looking at this video, I see a conflict between our expectation of the rapture in the immediate future and the readiness of this site to serve as a capital of the NWO. Frankly, it is just ruins and would take many, many years to build anything close to what would be needed to actually run a world-wide government.

So, are we wrong about Babylon being the actual physical location of the capital and should be looking for a figurative Babylon instead? Or, are we very wrong about the feeling many of us have that the rapture will be happening very, very soon?

Thoughts?


My thoughts have always been along these lines; The Tribulation doesn't begin with the Rapture. I believe there will be many years between the Rapture and the beginning of the Trib, maybe as many as ten years.

I don't think people realize that a one world currency is NOT going to happen immediately, regardless of what most on this site believe. People have been claiming the OWC was going to be happening "any day now" since I began lurking at this site when it was in its infancy. We are still a ways away from a OWC. I believe the OWC will be used in connection with the MOTB and allow the AC to control the world economy, or at least most of the world.

We could be very close to the Rapture, yet quite a distance from Babylon becoming the headquarters of the NWO/UN/AC regime. Babylon will take years to rebuild. If they started today and worked non-stop for the next decade, they would be almost ready. It will not rise again for at least a decade though. One of the Mod's used a great example in Dubai. The company I work for insures many of the cranes used in constructing the skyscrapers and the equipment used to construct the roads/highways and infrastructure. Babylon WILL be rebuilt, but it won't be for at least a decade.

I have to add this part...... There are always those that say the OWC or the new temple is already in waiting...... I'm sorry, but that either isn't true or someone has a huge warehouse bill. Christian authors have been claiming since the 70's that "the person they know on the inside" tells them the temple is ready and just needs to be assembled, or that they are being told "the OWC is already a done deal and will be implemented on a whim". Folks, that isn't going to, and can't, happen. When the Lord is ready, it will all fall into place, not a minute sooner. With all the converts in China being saved on a daily basis, I don't think the Lord is going to cut their opportunity short just so we in America don't have to go through some trials first. America has walked away from God, not vice versa.

Just my .02.

[chrish4jesus]

Remember iraq has 80 billion in surplus cash from oil sales and if u take the envirnmoent worldwide in 2008 compared to everything that has happened so fast in just the past 2 months there is no way it will be that long. I also believe the 70 year bible generation theory for everything to be completed. israel reborn in 1948, its been 61 yrs from her rebirth, if u add 7 years of trib to that u get 68 years. So going on the basis that the rapture will put the final collapse on everything weve seen happen in the past 2 months ie. give the economy the last fall it would need for the world leaders to activate a one world economy etc. although debateable, i think the bible generation is 70 years, and jesus said that that generation would still be alive when all things were fulfilled. so even a baby born on that very 1948 day wud be 61 now or 68 taking the future 7 years of tribulation. if the rapture were to occur tommorow and u take 70-68 years, then that still gives 2 years of us being gone and the a/c seeting up his government etc. Also take into account that the trib doesnt start until the 7 year peace treaty, and israel burns the spoils from magog war for 7 years, so it becomes evident that the damascus destruction and magog wars must occur before the peace treaty, which i believe will be immediately before or after the rapture, giving the a/c at least a 2 year start.

[josh1313]

http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/babylon.htm

This website is a little old, but it has some info on why Babylon should be literal Babylon.

Just remember, people used to think Israel was a metaphor for the church, but we know what happened with that.

[araj54]

We need to keep in mind the powderkeg forming around Israel and all the saber-rattling going on will probably not take years to come to a head. Once that happens,IMO, things will begin to happen at a feverish pace.

[getlost63]

Hold on I know how we could fix Babylon and have it up and running in a month so we can be out of here faster. We can ask Ty Pennington and his group from Extreme Home Makeover to become Extreme Babylon Makeover if they can get a house up and running with all the volunteers maybe just maybe he can get a big enough group around and have Babylon up and running in a month. LOL LOL

[JefferyDollars]

Hold on I know how we could fix Babylon and have it up and running in a month so we can be out of here faster. We can ask Ty Pennington and his group from Extreme Home Makeover to become Extreme Babylon Makeover if they can get a house up and running with all the volunteers maybe just maybe he can get a big enough group around and have Babylon up and running in a month. LOL LOL

[Quinton]

Don't forget, the city of Babylon is one thing (in ruins), but it didn't say "city" in scripture, it just said "Babylon the great is fallen".

The term the great, is megistos, which means "a very wide application". It also means "be very afraid".

That area that once encompassed the Babylonian empire is highlighted above. Also note that the US just built a new, very large embassy in Iraq.


Revelation 18
1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. 2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

Revelation 18
1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

[stonewallfan]

Excellent reading and great question about Babylon. I think it begs the question......why?

We all I think agree that God raises up nations through time to carry out His purpose and will nothing just happens. Prior to 48 Israel was just the church. So God raised up Israel and a nation was born in a day. From 70 AD until May 13 1948 no Israel and then in one day Israel was born (Much like the rapture perhaps in thousands of years of history in one day in a blink of an eye) So from 70 AD until 1948 no Israel it seems the church was moving through history a mystery to old testament.

Israel stands today. Jerusalem seems all roads to world peace run through Jerusalem. The trends seem to indicate something big is comming. As we know the world became interested in the nation of Iraq in 91 and we fought a war there. Then we fought a second war there and threw down a tyrant. The power of the world seems to be focused on Iraq. Where was Iraq in the world scene during WWII, WWI, during the 1700s where was Iraq in the 50s,60s, 70s I can remember as a kid Iraq and Iran fighting a bloody war in the 80s.

So the question is why has God raised Iraq up in what seems the final days of the church? Why has God brought many of the world's most influential govts to do business and build and bring infrastructure? Why has God done this at a time when all of the worlds global peace initiatives lead through Jerusalem? A time when it seems the world is being rocked by powerful earthquakes, threats of tremendous solar activity in the years to come, global finance that has collapsed with a call to a new global currency which seems to lead to a global financial coalition? Why at a time like this in our lifetime? I think in a blink of an eye one day soon just like the day that Israel was born after 2000 years the Rapture will happen after 2000 years of church history. Many of these questions will be awnsered because we can see powerful trends forming that simply can not happen by just the will of men.

[bvaliant4him]

Babylon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The angel in the book of Revelations does say the woman(Babylon) is that great city which rules over the kings of the earth. The city doesn't have to be on the exact same spot, I don't think.Read Zechariah 5:5-11
__________________

[Guy4God]

I just posted this in the other Babylon forum...it fits here as well...

I think that modern day Baghdad is in the territory of ancient Babylon when it was at its height as a world power. I think we are seeing today the early stages of the Babylon empire of the Scripture that is prophesied for the Great Tribulation. I liken it to the generation that saw Israel become a nation. They saw it coming together, weren't sure exactly how it was playing out, but had faith that God's Word was true. We should take the same approach with Babylon, IMO.

[twisty58]

PrinceSomeDay... settle down, honey! All is not lost! None of us knows when that time is-remember? It could indeed, be today! There are so many things happening in the world right now that we know nothing about! Don't discount the possibility that there are people already preparing for this city to be built. This will NOT be a slow endeavor! I believe it will go up in a flash of time! Believe me, I can't even imagine (and don't want to) how much worse things can get... but God has told us it will be much worse. God's timing is best. Best for us and best for His glory. Let's not worry too much about Babylon... let's stay as close together as we can and constantly in the Word. ZI love you guys!

[JefferyDollars]

Excellent reading and great question about Babylon. I think it begs the question......why?

We all I think agree that God raises up nations through time to carry out His purpose and will nothing just happens. Prior to 48 Israel was just the church. So God raised up Israel and a nation was born in a day. From 70 AD until May 13 1948 no Israel and then in one day Israel was born (Much like the rapture perhaps in thousands of years of history in one day in a blink of an eye) So from 70 AD until 1948 no Israel it seems the church was moving through history a mystery to old testament.

Israel stands today. Jerusalem seems all roads to world peace run through Jerusalem. The trends seem to indicate something big is comming. As we know the world became interested in the nation of Iraq in 91 and we fought a war there. Then we fought a second war there and threw down a tyrant. The power of the world seems to be focused on Iraq. Where was Iraq in the world scene during WWII, WWI, during the 1700s where was Iraq in the 50s,60s, 70s I can remember as a kid Iraq and Iran fighting a bloody war in the 80s.

So the question is why has God raised Iraq up in what seems the final days of the church? Why has God brought many of the world's most influential govts to do business and build and bring infrastructure? Why has God done this at a time when all of the worlds global peace initiatives lead through Jerusalem? A time when it seems the world is being rocked by powerful earthquakes, threats of tremendous solar activity in the years to come, global finance that has collapsed with a call to a new global currency which seems to lead to a global financial coalition? Why at a time like this in our lifetime? I think in a blink of an eye one day soon just like the day that Israel was born after 2000 years the Rapture will happen after 2000 years of church history. Many of these questions will be awnsered because we can see powerful trends forming that simply can not happen by just the will of men.

Hmm good post, I like your reasoning I never thought of it like that nobody really cared about Iraq until now. It seems Saddam had to be neutralized so that Iraq would be free to play its part. Very interesting....

[Never alone]

Oops...feel kind of dumb, or dumber; didn't see all that ATLCYB had posted above. Disregard my menial attempt at translation!

[PrinceSomeday]

Wow!

I have been unable to respond (heavy work load...tax season).

All I can say is that I am overwhelmed that my simple post had anything to do with sparking such a great series of postings.

Thank you to all of you who wanted to encourage me.

Many good thoughts and observations.

Thanks!!!!

[saved by Grace]

i think it is literal Babylon.the Bible says what is says and is not meant to be taken allegorically.and big money has been pumped into it's rebuild.it will be back much like the terminator said he would be back.Saddam Hussein pumped a lot of money into refurbishing it and one of the big shocks came after the 1991 gulf war was the discovery of Babylon's ruins and the parts that have then so far been rebuilt.