The Biblical Argument for the Rebuilding of Babylon *Merged*

[WanttoKnow]

Doesn't "mystery Babylon" refer to the false religions of the world especially the worship of the one world religion and the antichrist during this period?

[razberry]

Fine and dandy. Given that the REAL CITY of Babylon is just ruins today, with no news of any immediate change in that status, and the cost and time involved in making it ready to be the "capital of the NWO" (10-20 years), I guess any reasonable person can believe that we ARE NO WHERE NEAR THE RAPTURE YET!!!!!

Thanks! I needed that slap in the face. Guess we are all looking pretty silly thinking it is just around the corner.

Time to get on with life, serve, tell others about Jesus and let things unfold.

I guess all the other "stuff" going on prophetically is just "braxton hicks".

Oh well, it was a nice dream while it lasted. (Getting a free ticket out of all of our problems via the Rapture.)

Kinda takes the imminence factor out of the picture, doesn't it?

[ClarionCall]

My previous post was not being "tongue in cheek" guys.

You've convinced me ATLB that the Rapture is not going to happen until probably after I'm dead and gone.

There is no reasonable way to reconcile the literal mention of Bablylon other than taking it literally!!!!!

Bummer!

Given all the economic problems, rising persecution problems, etc., it would have been nice to live under the illusion that we were going to be leaving soon and didn't need to really worry about it.

Reality Check! For those of you who type things like "We're outa here" etc. every time some news item about prophecy hits, think twice before typing such glib comments in the future. Ask yourself, "Has Babylon been rebuilt yet?" If you get the current answer (no), then hold that thought...we are NOT "outa here".

Good job ATLB. Your strong argument has really ruined my day!!!! (I would rather have gone off with the gleeful thought, "Maybe today!" but not anymore.) Guess it was time to get my head out of the sand.

Prince,

Don't give up! I think the literal Babylon interpretation is wrong. Seeing the video of Babylon brought this home to me. Do some google searches of other web sites and you will find lots of other interpretations of what Revelation means when it says "Babylon". This includes the idea of the Roman Catholic Church, the city of Rome, America, New York City, etc, being Babylon. Historically, Babylon was a "code word" for Rome. My point of my OP was that many of us believe the rapture is coming very soon due to the signs we are seeing, but the idea of a literal Babylon clashes with that so something has to give.

[WVBORN56]

Kinda takes the imminence factor out of the picture, doesn't it?

No, not really. The doctrine of imminency is rock solid. Nothing must occur before the rapture. It has already been mentioned that there could be a time lapse between the rapture and the beginning of the great 7 year tribulation period. It was also shown a city can spring up pretty fast. One could also ask why does the world always meet in Geneve Switzerand? It is small and out of the way? The world leaders could all decide to meet tomorrow in Babylon. This is not much of an obstacle IMO to the rapture happening any time now.

I would not discount all the other developments either. Time is clearly short. God is in control and will work out the details. Much of prophecy is purposely vague IMO for several reasons. If if was spelled out clearly in black and white it would be open to self-fullfilling attacks from the non-believer. Plus we are saved by faith not by evidence. God wants us to seek him and to also study to show ourselves approved. We will know the season and we are clearly in the season. Time to be getting ready. That has not changed one bit.

[KissyLoves]

I always thought when the AC comes to power that he will want Babylon, and that's when the re-build will happen. Of course, he won't be revealed until we've been Raptured. But none of us really know. Also, we assume the Rapture and the signing of the Covenant will be close, but as pointed out - there may be a lapse in time, years even.

Don't lose sight that Jesus is what we should be focused on. Not "Getting a free ticket out of all of our problems via the Rapture." That is absolutely the wrong reason to look forward to the Rapture, and/or prophecy being full-filled. Just my 2 cents.

Prince Someday, please know that every word spoken above was out of love. Please don't worry so much. I will be praying for you.

[copilot]

I think when looking at prophecy from this side (hasn't happened yet), we tend to think of these things in our paradigm...i.e. Babylon as a big, busy, world center as in a New York City - type. If we shift our pre-formed ideas, it is very possible that Babylon can be set up as prophesied without a huge city around it. They could literally build a world center "palace" in a matter of months, with everything connected, as a fortress (just like the U.S. embassy in Iraq now!), that would be THE meeting place, and center of all world business. This is VERY possible, especially with the focus on the historical side of the city. They will no doubt build off of that theme for the "center of the world" to rule, with all the history behind it.

I think we need to not limit ourselves to what we *think* these things will look like. JMHO

[MrsBri]

My previous post was not being "tongue in cheek" guys.

You've convinced me ATLB that the Rapture is not going to happen until probably after I'm dead and gone.

There is no reasonable way to reconcile the literal mention of Bablylon other than taking it literally!!!!!

Bummer!

Given all the economic problems, rising persecution problems, etc., it would have been nice to live under the illusion that we were going to be leaving soon and didn't need to really worry about it.

Reality Check! For those of you who type things like "We're outa here" etc. every time some news item about prophecy hits, think twice before typing such glib comments in the future. Ask yourself, "Has Babylon been rebuilt yet?" If you get the current answer (no), then hold that thought...we are NOT "outa here".

Good job ATLB. Your strong argument has really ruined my day!!!! (I would rather have gone off with the gleeful thought, "Maybe today!" but not anymore.) Guess it was time to get my head out of the sand.

Don't be discouraged because although it's the position of the board that mystery babylon & literal babylon are the same, there are many other good theories out there. Dave Hunt believes that Mystery Babylon is symbolic of the Roman Catholic Church & I think he puts up a very convincing, bible based arguement for that position! Check out the book "A Woman Rides the Beast" by Dave Hunt.

Remember too that in the Old Testament, the coming Messiah was described as "out of Egypt", "a Nazerene", born in Bethelhem. I can just imagine the scholars debating their theories about the orgin of the Messiah lol....and also what the Messiah would do when He arrived. Once the prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, those Old Testament prophecies became clear to those willing to see.

I strongly suspect the last days prophecies will be just like that...there are so many aspects which are unclear right now. The one certain thing is that the last days prophecies will occur...the exact who, where, what, when questions remain a mystery but at least we know the "why" answer

[AlwaysWatching]

5This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.


Definition of Mystery: a religious truth that one can know only by revelation and cannot fully understand ....something not understood or beyond understanding ....a private secret


So I do not believe it has to be the literal city of Babylon.. It could be, but I am not sold on it...

[AlwaysWatching]

For example, One of the EU headquarters has a building mirrored after the Tower of Babel

[Tres Wright]

I have long believed that Babylon refers to the RCC. Many people don't realize this, but in ancient literature Rome is sometimes referred to as Babylon as were some other cities of that time. The Babylon in Iraq is not the only Babylon from ancient times. Just like today there is a Paris, France and a Paris, Texas; back then there were multiple Babylons Here is a blurb from the Catholic Encyclopedia which states that even the RCC believes Peter was referring to Rome when he used "Babylon":

St. Peter's First Epistle was written almost undoubtedly from Rome, since the salutation at the end reads: "The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark" (5:13). Babylon must here be identified with the Roman capital; since Babylon on the Euphrates, which lay in ruins, or New Babylon (Seleucia) on the Tigris, or the Egyptian Babylon near Memphis, or Jerusalem cannot be meant, the reference must be to Rome, the only city which is called Babylon elsewhere in ancient Christian literature (Revelation 17:5; 18:10; "Oracula Sibyl.", V, verses 143 and 159, ed. Geffcken, Leipzig, 1902, 111).

Link to the Catholic Encyclopedia page this is taken from: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm

There are other scriptural references that point towards "Babylon" being Rome and the RCC, but I won't belabor the point as not everyone here believes this and arguments usually break out over it. I'll just say that if you search through RR and on Google you'll find plenty of reading about the subject both for and against, but in my humble opinion the arguments for Babylon being the RCC are quite compelling.

In short, those who are waiting for the Babylon in Iraq to be rebuilt before the Rapture happens are probably in for a surprise

[JefferyDollars]

I think when looking at prophecy from this side (hasn't happened yet), we tend to think of these things in our paradigm...i.e. Babylon as a big, busy, world center as in a New York City - type. If we shift our pre-formed ideas, it is very possible that Babylon can be set up as prophesied without a huge city around it. They could literally build a world center "palace" in a matter of months, with everything connected, as a fortress (just like the U.S. embassy in Iraq now!), that would be THE meeting place, and center of all world business. This is VERY possible, especially with the focus on the historical side of the city. They will no doubt build off of that theme for the "center of the world" to rule, with all the history behind it.

I think we need to not limit ourselves to what we *think* these things will look like. JMHO

Hmmm everyone He has an interesting point. A world center for commerce in the 21st century need not resemble NYC or Chicago with a sprawling urban landscape. We have the technology today (just look at Wallstreet) that if the NWO desired to for symbolic reasons and a gumption from Satan to setup head quarters in Babylon and run all the worlds finances and commerce they could. I forgot that today we are an electronic and internet based society no longer do we need a series of large buildings in order to run the world. Babylon can still be the center of world commerce without looking like Dubai I wonder why ive never seen it like this before Something like this could easily be setup rather quickly let alone if there is a time gap between the rapture and the start of the trib!

[ScoobyDoo]

When the Olympics choose a city, that city normally has a little less than 4 years to get ready and build everything they need to host. I don't think it is inconceivable for Babylon to get rebuilt in less than 4 years.

[Musician in His house]

Keep in mind as well -- correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Saddam Hussein's various palaces in and around Baghdad still standing? Could that serve as part of the infrastructure for some kind of new Babylon seat of government or headquarters for the AC? And isn't Baghdad not very far from where the original Babylon was? Perhaps it is even possible that Baghdad might be renamed New Babylon . . . just thinking out loud here.

[copilot]

That could be....again I say it depends on our limited vision of prophecy. I think everything goes out the window once the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. The world will go back to the way it was, with supernatural events that we can't even imagine, but with Satan on the loose, his minions will do amazing things. I see no problem at all with building a world government center/fortress in a matter of months...in fact, I wouldn't doubt that the plans are all in place now, and just need to be implemented. Just as the Jewish Temple is ready to be built...everything is done, it just needs to be implemented.

That could very well be what is happening in Babylon. Why on earth would the US build the world's largest embassy/fortress like they did in Iraq? What a strange place to do it, wouldn't ya think? Unless, of course, there was a geographical reason that we do not know of quite yet......

[ClarionCall]

Keep in mind as well -- correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Saddam Hussein's various palaces in and around Baghdad still standing? Could that serve as part of the infrastructure for some kind of new Babylon seat of government or headquarters for the AC? And isn't Baghdad not very far from where the original Babylon was? Perhaps it is even possible that Baghdad might be renamed New Babylon . . . just thinking out loud here.

Apparently it's about 50 miles from Baghdad to Babylon.

[Biblenuggetlady]

Prince...The rapture is always imminent, nothing in scripture tells us that "Babylon is rebuilt and then the rapture comes". Just because something might look a decade or two away for literal Babylon, in our human view, does not mean the rapture cannot happen today. It also does not mean that it will take that long for "headquarters" to be set in place for the a/c. Remember, it is the a/c who will destroy "Ecclesiastical Babylon", he uses her for the first half of the trib, but destroys her in the 2nd half when he turns to world domination and demand that he be worshiped. The two get confused at times.

We know literal Babylon is going to be the Babylon that is judged as there are prophecies still unfulfilled for her. (Jerm 50/51 for example) Zech. 5:5-11 show us that Babylon is where evil is going to be set and the symbolism of the ephah shows that it is also the economic capital. To further avoid any confusion scripture uses the names of "Shinar" and "land of Chaldeans" which are the other names for Babylon. There should be no confusion of a literal Babylon or not when God has used more than one identifier to avoid the confusion.

Is 13-14 describes literal Babylon's destruction, it also gives the timing "Day of Jehovah" which is the Great Trib, so we know it is future and it's fate will be like Sodom and Gomorrah-never happened to literal Babylon yet.

A couple points...remember we cannot be doing newspaper exegesis to interpret prophecy. Remember, before Israel was literally reborn as a nation in 1917-1948, "Israel" was made to be allegorical by some. The more literal we take scripture (when no other interpretation is obviously being implied/symbolized) the less trouble and confusion we end up in.

Babylon (Iraq) is the birthplace of all false religious systems and God has a plan for her in the future and her destiny sure.

Mystery Babylon is a false religious system, literal Babylon is Babylon, Iraq, both are going to be destroyed in the tribulation period. The first by the a/c, the second God is going to raise up Gentiles against Babylon and then she will be destroyed as Sodom and Gomorrah and even into the MK it will never be inhabited again.

Babylon is a demonic stronghold, even the fallen angels that lead the demonic invasion of Rev 9 are bound there in the Euphrates...

[araj54]

I don't believe Babylon refers to a city but rather an area or empire from which much of the worlds false religions and much of the worlds sin originated. Go to RR and read Wilfred Hahn's two articles on Flying Scrolls and Baskets. God's wrath toward this area has been building for centuries and IMO he will gather the evil to this area and destroy it once and for all. This will include false religions as well as the monetary systems that have enslaved the working class for centuries.

[Biblenuggetlady]

Jeruselum, the very city that crucified our Lord has also been considered MB as well.

No, you might be confusing this verse, which also tells us it is not "literal" but "spiritual"....

Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

[jtvol]

I know there is much debate over it (and I don't mean to stir up anything), but Babylon in Revelation is the Roman Catholic Church. These sites are pretty good in explaing the issue far better than any BBoard post I could make:

http://www.thebereancall.org/topic/catholic
http://www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/
http://www.understandthetimes.org/

[Biblenuggetlady]

I know there is much debate over it (and I don't mean to stir up anything), but Babylon in Revelation is the Roman Catholic Church. These sites are pretty good in explaing the issue far better than any BBoard post I could make:

http://www.thebereancall.org/topic/catholic
http://www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/
http://www.understandthetimes.org/

Again.....there is a literal physical Babylon and and Ecclesiastical one. One is destroyed by the a/c, the other God raises an army to destroy and then it will burn forever, even during the MK.