Children and the Rapture: Taken or Left Behind?

[Christina]

Wow. You are taking quite the leap here my friend. I prefer to come to my own understandings, NOT be judged by someone who has not one iota of insight into my line of thinking. Thank you for thinking you can clearly explain what those of us "think" that don't agree with you. Very Christ like.

Most people have stated their reasons for their beliefs. Re-read the thread, but please do not attempt to get inside another persons head and tell anyone what they believe. You have no clue what other people are thinking. Until now, this has been a very civil conversation. There is always that one person that has to come along though and mess it all up. When that happens (the 'i can do no wrong crowd shows up'), I prefer to walk away from the board altogether. I'm not going to argue with a fellow follower of Christ on a topic that NO ONE has any more insight into than another. Good luck in your attempts to pick a fight with the others.

Wow Last Samurai, what happened? I'm not taking sides but I don't see anywhere that Glory In Print jumped on anyone or judged anyone, he asked a question of those who he thought expressed a belief of children going to hell. It seems there are two topics mixed in with this thread....children going in the rapture and children going to heaven at death in general.

Let's try to remember that we are all God's children and although there will be times that we don't agree on issues, disagreement should still be shown in love. Sometimes topics get heated so maybe taking time before being so quick to respond might be a good idea, I do it myself sometimes.

[Glory in print]

Heres my opinion, and only my opinion explained a little better...To enter the kingdom of heaven as we all know is for only blood bought, born again Christians, and we (most of us believe) that all children that die in child hood also will enter heaven, and as for the rapture its for blood bought born again Christians, and (insert my opinion) if children are imparted forgiveness of sins, and worthy to enter heaven and escape the eternal wrath of God in hell, then I also believe God will impart children with forgiveness and spare them the tribulation, and take them in the rapture........(insert my opinion again), if children are worthy to enter heaven and expereince the grace of God after death, there worthy to escape the tribulation, and be taken in the rapture, as the scriptures says we are not appointed to wrath. ( Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


I Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.........Its my opinion all people who are on the earth right now, who are on there way to heaven, (then there ready to go in the rapture)....If kids are justified by the blood of Christ enough to enter heaven, then I believe there justified by the same blood to go in the rapture.

[Kant]

I will go against the grain, just to present another view. Before I go into it I will say that I am not fully convinced either way on this issue.

There are a couple of things that others have mentioned in relation to children in God's judgment; namely that there is no record that children were spared from the flood, Sodom's destruction, and so on. The verse that refers to Christ saying that the kingdom of heaven belongs to these, I believe refers more to an "innocence" than to children across the board. I think he was more or less making a point of what is required to get into heaven, not necessarily saying the kingdom of heaven belongs to all children or vice versa.

Now why do I feel that way? Well I don't think it takes a lot for us to know that there are probably what we would call, for a lack of a better term, wicked children. Kids these days can do some pretty terrible things and I don't think it's from age 12 and up... That goes for everyone as well (adults included) I'm sure an argument can be built that most children may have an innocence about them, but I tend to believe that children can and do know when they sin, or at least did something wrong, and I don't believe they only gain that knowledge once they hit the age of accountability.

In Matthew 18:6 (NASB) Jesus said:

but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

The more obvious thing that stands out is the fact that children can sin (called "stumble" here). What may not be so obvious is the heavy weight that's placed (figuratively and literally) on the person that causes the child to sin. We get why it would be bad for the one doing the stumbling. But why would Jesus make such a point out of it if all children are innocent and get a free pass anyways? I would say, they don't.... to a certain degree. I wouldn't include infants, mentally handicapped children, etc. in this category.

Also, it can't strictly be an "innocence" issue either, because then you have to account for all the "innocent" people who haven't yet heard the gospel. Well.. just something to think about.

[Last Samurai]

For those of you who believe that some children will be left behind, I am curious what are your thoughts concerning children who die whose parents are complete unbelievers?....Do you believe they go to hell?...If there not worthy enough to be taken in the rapture, then by your reasoning, if they die as a child they would not be worthy enough to enter heaven, and thus wind up in hell......I don't follow that reasoning at all.

I'm sorry, that isn't a question. That is a clear statement. You did ask a question prior, but what I placed in bold above is anything but a question. It frustrates me to no end when someone posts what someone else must be thinking, or what they must mean..... Only God himself knows what anyone is thinking.

As I said in my previous post, I will not argue my point as I'm not dogmatic about it and wouldn't "argue" it with a fellow believer if I were. This topic, like may others on RR, stir the pot in a bad way. I don't like the fellowship to be disrupted, so I choose to rarely get involved in such discussions. It makes no sense to me to argue about God with another believer. In fact, that could be written alongside the word 'nuts' in the dictionary.

And as for my reasoning.... I firmly believe children go to Heaven to be with the Lord when they die. I highly doubt I ever believe children are taken in the Rapture because there is no indication of this in the Bible what-so-ever. Proof of a Rapture is in there, however, proof that all children are raptured is not. The children in Soddom were not saved. The innocent children during Noah's day were not spared. It matters not that this was before Jesus as there is nothing regarding the rapture that mentions children and there is nothing Jesus himself said on this issue.

In Revelation, we see so many things. We see enough to get a great picture of what the world will be like in the very near future. We get nothing stating there are no children though. Not a single word. You don't think John would have noticed that there are ZERO children around? You don't think Paul would have written about this to assure people their children (in the coming week) would be ok? You don't think Jesus himself would have mentioned this to his disciples? I think all of the above would have been mentioned, but again, I'm only posting my thought and certainly not questioning anyone else for their belief.

No hard feelings. We are all looking for the same thing and that is the return of our Lord.

[Tall Timbers]

God is Righteous and Perfect in every way. We'll understand and be happy with what He has done when we're with Him and have a better understanding that exceeds our current abilities. Since heaven and hell are places where individual souls will spend eternity, I ask the question: Is it righteous that a soul who happens to be a child or infant when the rapture occurs be raptured and welcomed into heaven while those who have passed from childhood to adulthood are not? If so, that would imply a bit of eternal luck for those who happen to be young at the time of the rapture. That doesn't seem right to me but I'm sure that my understanding in this area is limited. Just a thought. I have four children. I don't want any of them to miss out on the Kingdom of God so I'm busy introducing them to Christ by reading the Word to them and by trying to be the best Christian example I can be to them.

[ehbowen]

For those of you who believe that some children will be left behind, I am curious what are your thoughts concerning children who die whose parents are complete unbelievers?....Do you believe they go to hell?...If there not worthy enough to be taken in the rapture, then by your reasoning, if they die as a child they would not be worthy enough to enter heaven, and thus wind up in hell......I don't follow that reasoning at all.

I agree with those who see the Rapture as a completely separate event from physical death. It is, and is supposed to be, the blessed hope for believers. Taking the innocent underage children of believers is a logical corollary of that belief; it would hardly be a "blessed hope" if it meant leaving an infant child behind to starve and die alone. I think that there might even be some basis for taking pets who would otherwise have no support or sustenance for the same reasons. But the child of an unbelieving family is not going to be left alone without support. In fact, if most pre-trib thought is correct, the first three-and-a-half years of the tribulation are going to go pretty smoothly.

The mistake we so often make is to assume that God wants quantity over quality. If that was the case then all he would have to do is rapture everybody. Heck fire, while at it why not call up old Scratch and say, "Let's let bygones be bygones." But filled pews are not as important to God as pure hearts and changed lives. The children of unbelievers will still have as much chance as anyone to accept Christ during the tribulation as a result of the preaching of the Witnesses, the 144,000, and the angels—IMO, even more so as they will not have hardened their hearts aforetime.

It is an important question, as it changes the dynamic of the Tribulation completely. If the "empty every womb" believers are correct, then the Rapture will be an in-your-face slam at every society and every nation on earth. No one will be unaffected. If I'm right, however, then in those areas with few true Christians the rapture will hardly be noticed, and if it is noticed it might very well be passed off as "Allah's judgment against the infidels!" or something similar. There is no middle ground. The convincer for me, then, is Jesus's description of his return as being "like a thief in the night". The time for him to be in everyone's faces will be when he returns seven years later.

[tooty]

I agree with those who see the Rapture as a completely separate event from physical death. It is, and is supposed to be, the blessed hope for believers. Taking the innocent underage children of believers is a logical corollary of that belief; it would hardly be a "blessed hope" if it meant leaving an infant child behind to starve and die alone. I think that there might even be some basis for taking pets who would otherwise have no support or sustenance for the same reasons. But the child of an unbelieving family is not going to be left alone without support. In fact, if most pre-trib thought is correct, the first three-and-a-half years of the tribulation are going to go pretty smoothly.

The mistake we so often make is to assume that God wants quantity over quality. If that was the case then all he would have to do is rapture everybody. Heck fire, while at it why not call up old Scratch and say, "Let's let bygones be bygones." But filled pews are not as important to God as pure hearts and changed lives. The children of unbelievers will still have as much chance as anyone to accept Christ during the tribulation as a result of the preaching of the Witnesses, the 144,000, and the angels—IMO, even more so as they will not have hardened their hearts aforetime.

It is an important question, as it changes the dynamic of the Tribulation completely. If the "empty every womb" believers are correct, then the Rapture will be an in-your-face slam at every society and every nation on earth. No one will be unaffected. If I'm right, however, then in those areas with few true Christians the rapture will hardly be noticed, and if it is noticed it might very well be passed off as "Allah's judgment against the infidels!" or something similar. There is no middle ground. The convincer for me, then, is Jesus's description of his return as being "like a thief in the night". The time for him to be in everyone's faces will be when he returns seven years later.

This sounds reasonable and I agree with most of it...except for the pet issue.

[waiting1]

I see what you are saying, I just disagree. The verse above does not give a clear indication children will be taken in the Rapture. This is something people can debate all day/night long, however, scripture does not indicate all children will go in the rapture.

Using the same verse above, one could ask why so many children were killed in Nazi Death Camps. What about all the World Wars?

Look at when the 12 spies went out, and 10 came back with bad reports.

What did God do? He punished them for thier sin so they would die in the

wilderness by wandering 40 years when the promised land was just only

days away! But wait God did not hold it against anyone 20 and younger

because He knew whatever thinking they would have would be the result of

thier own parents sins. Another case in point. Why did God say to the

Israelites you shall kill all the inhabitants including the children and you shall

not pity. Why? Is it because those children were sinners? No. Because God

knew if they grew up they would do just like thier parents did and would be

doomed to hell themselves and they would also lead the Jews astray. To me

what God said in that you shall not pity was in reality a form of mercy

whether anyone realizes it or not, even mercy for the Israelites commiting it.

The point I would really like to get across is the 7 year Trib will be the most

horrible time ever in mankinds history. We are speaking of horrors the likes of

which we have only seen in science fiction movies, but now will be a

reality. Children go one of two ways in life, with Jesus Christ as Lord and

Saviour, or without when they grow up. Who is responsible mostly for

when they grow up and don't know Jesus Christ as thier Lord and Saviour?

The Parents!! That said should a child who can't make informed choices be

left here at a time where the Parents have become so evil and vile

that God is going to harshly punish them and the whole world for

its ways when they haven't a clue that it is going to happen and what

it is all about. GOD IS JUST, FAIR, BUT ABOVE ALL

EXTREMELY MERCIFUL AND FULL OF GRACE AND YOU WOULD HAVE US TO

BELIEVE THAT HE WILL PUT ALL THE "INNOCENT CHILDREN" IN THE

SAME CATEGORY AS THE "EVIL VILE PARENTS"????????????????


That doesn't sound or read like the God I know in the Bible and in my heart.

[Last Samurai]

Look at when the 12 spies went out, and 10 came back with bad reports.

AND YOU WOULD HAVE US TO

BELIEVE THAT HE WILL PUT ALL THE "INNOCENT CHILDREN" IN THE

SAME CATEGORY AS THE "EVIL VILE PARENTS"????????????????[/B][/COLOR]


That doesn't sound or read like the God I know in the Bible and in my heart.

If you read the thread, you will see that not a single person has stated anything of the sort. Not a single person has stated children are "in the same category" as their "EVIL VILE PARENTS". Could you make this any more dramatic?

[Last Samurai]

This sounds reasonable and I agree with most of it...except for the pet issue.

It does sound reasonable. I have no clue about pets and whether they go or not. Would be cool to see my first dog again though.

[ehbowen]

GOD IS JUST, FAIR, BUT ABOVE ALL

EXTREMELY MERCIFUL AND FULL OF GRACE AND YOU WOULD HAVE US TO

BELIEVE THAT HE WILL PUT ALL THE "INNOCENT CHILDREN" IN THE

SAME CATEGORY AS THE "EVIL VILE PARENTS"????????????????


That doesn't sound or read like the God I know in the Bible and in my heart.

But you make the mistake of assuming that the ultimate hope that any child can aspire to is to get a ticket to Heaven, by hook or by crook. Grab that fire insurance and breathe a sigh of relief, then go back to doing whatever you wanted in the first place.

If that were the case every child would die in infancy.

Look, I don't claim to know why bad things happen to innocent children. Sometimes their guardian angels might see something about the situation as hopeless and ask God to pull the plug, while other times (MUCH more often, IMO), Satan may see a child as a potential threat to his cause and deliberately target him/her with an attack. One way or the other, I have this working theory that no child survives to the age of accountability without divine and/or angelic intervention at some point. (Have I ever mentioned how I crawled up inside a dry cleaning bag while still in my crib? Or my niece who tried sticking a paper clip into an electric outlet when her mom was occupied elsewhere?)

But God isn't looking for warm bodies—he could raise those up from stones. He wants, and the angels want, CONQUERORS! Overcomers! Those who have endured Satan's temptations and attacks and have been victorious over them through the blood of the Lamb! THAT is what the children of Adam should and (I believe) our guardian angels do fervently hope and pray for with every fiber of their being. And that is why God is going to make such a push for souls during the tribulation, with the Witnesses, the 144,000, and angels preaching the gospel to men. No one will have an excuse for rejecting the message, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit to find out that God specifically targets those who are young and still receptive to the message.

[Philippians1:21]

GOD IS JUST, FAIR, BUT ABOVE ALL

EXTREMELY MERCIFUL AND FULL OF GRACE AND YOU WOULD HAVE US TO

BELIEVE THAT HE WILL PUT ALL THE "INNOCENT CHILDREN" IN THE

SAME CATEGORY AS THE "EVIL VILE PARENTS"????????????????


That doesn't sound or read like the God I know in the Bible and in my heart.

You have lifted these verses out of the Old Testament completely out of context, relating to Gods action towards those under the Law.

We are not under the Law, and since you know that he spared the individuals you speak of, you will know the many times he has rained down judgement regardless of age. Children have regularly not escaped judgement in the bible...that is the God we all know of in the Bible, which is above all a righteous God.

[Last Samurai]

You have lifted these verses out of the Old Testament completely out of context, relating to Gods action towards those under the Law.

We are not under the Law, and since you know that he spared the individuals you speak of, you will know the many times he has rained down judgement regardless of age. Children have regularly not escaped judgement in the bible...that is the God we all know of in the Bible, which is above all a righteous God.

Very well said.

[waiting1]

I am not taking anything out of context. God isn't going to hold someone who is not able

to make a intelligent calculated decision or choice suffer an eternity in Hell. And if you

believe that what are you going to say when ALL THE CHILDREN ARE GONE IN THE

RAPTURE, INCLUDING THOSE WHO WERE IN THIER MOTHERS WOMB??????????????????

[waiting1]

You have lifted these verses out of the Old Testament completely out of context, relating to Gods action towards those under the Law.

We are not under the Law, and since you know that he spared the individuals you speak of, you will know the many times he has rained down judgement regardless of age. Children have regularly not escaped judgement in the bible...that is the God we all know of in the Bible, which is above all a righteous God.

Yes we are not under the Law!!!!!!!!

You are soooo right I'm glad you get it. WE ARE UNDER GRACE AND THESE

CHILDREN THIS TIME AROUND WILL BE GIVEN A FREE TICKET TO HEAVEN!!!!!!

YOU COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER FOR ME.

God Bless and Thank You!

[sumrbrzez]

matthew24,19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! what does this verse refer to? (KJV)

[Philippians1:21]

Yes we are not under the Law!!!!!!!!

You are soooo right I'm glad you get it. WE ARE UNDER GRACE AND THESE

CHILDREN THIS TIME AROUND WILL BE GIVEN A FREE TICKET TO HEAVEN!!!!!!

YOU COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER FOR ME.

God Bless and Thank You!

Your attitude in this post is highly unnecessary. More than a little patronizing.

[Philippians1:21]

I am not taking anything out of context. God isn't going to hold someone who is not able

to make a intelligent calculated decision or choice suffer an eternity in Hell.

Im sorry but now you are putting words in my mouth, don't know how many times me and Last Samurai have explained that we have not once said children will go to hell.

You are far too dogmatic about YOUR OPINION, that holds less credibility than mine.

Since you seem unable to follow the posts and have a civil discussion, then I am going to refrain from discussing this topic with you.

It would love to say its been fun...


Much Love.

[waiting1]

Yes, so am I tired of discussing it too. Not only tired of that but life as well. And with all

there is wrong with me, and the trials in my life, I hope we are Raptured soon.

[just-a-servant]

Look at when the 12 spies went out, and 10 came back with bad reports.

What did God do? He punished them for thier sin so they would die in the

wilderness by wandering 40 years when the promised land was just only

days away! But wait God did not hold it against anyone 20 and younger

because He knew whatever thinking they would have would be the result of

thier own parents sins. Another case in point. Why did God say to the

Israelites you shall kill all the inhabitants including the children and you shall

not pity. Why? Is it because those children were sinners? No. Because God

knew if they grew up they would do just like thier parents did and would be

doomed to hell themselves and they would also lead the Jews astray. To me

what God said in that you shall not pity was in reality a form of mercy

whether anyone realizes it or not, even mercy for the Israelites commiting it.

The point I would really like to get across is the 7 year Trib will be the most

horrible time ever in mankinds history. We are speaking of horrors the likes of

which we have only seen in science fiction movies, but now will be a

reality. Children go one of two ways in life, with Jesus Christ as Lord and

Saviour, or without when they grow up. Who is responsible mostly for

when they grow up and don't know Jesus Christ as thier Lord and Saviour?

The Parents!! That said should a child who can't make informed choices be

left here at a time where the Parents have become so evil and vile

that God is going to harshly punish them and the whole world for

its ways when they haven't a clue that it is going to happen and what

it is all about. GOD IS JUST, FAIR, BUT ABOVE ALL

EXTREMELY MERCIFUL AND FULL OF GRACE AND YOU WOULD HAVE US TO

BELIEVE THAT HE WILL PUT ALL THE "INNOCENT CHILDREN" IN THE

SAME CATEGORY AS THE "EVIL VILE PARENTS"????????????????


That doesn't sound or read like the God I know in the Bible and in my heart.

Waiting1,

Your post started out with an interesting thought but, as I requested at the start of this thread, please quote your references so all can read and obtain a clear understanding. This is supposed to be a teaching opportunity. If it is taken in that manner, we all will come out blessed and there will be no need to SHOUT at each other. Take the time to research your answer before posting. Look up the reference, google the subject if you have to, get out your concordance! Doing so will not only give you a better answer, but it will give you a better understanding of the scriptural truth and the subject.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (NIV)

If what you say is your opinion, then say so. Conjecture, speculation and feelings really don't matter. What does matter is a sound parsing of the Word. Let's stick to that, shall we? I would like to hear more on your thoughts; I think you're headed down the right track, just write it differently, please.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

BTW, I really have enjoyed reading all the posts here, there appears to be quite a lot of passion about the subject. I will post my opinion so you all will know I'm not just swatting the hornet's nest.