Children and the Rapture: Taken or Left Behind?

[Kliska]

Listen, folks. The reason I mentioned the emotions is because it IS an emotional issue, and sometimes emotions get in the way of the truth. Maybe I seem cold because I'm a stoic person or both of my children are thankfully saved. The grace of God will trump everything else and I'd be just as happy if every kid goes to heaven. However, the Bible verses I find support that that's not the case. I'm open to being enlightened and read all of your posts, however, I still stand by what I believe. "Suffer the children to come to Me" has always meant that don't think they're too young to be saved. Yes, we have grace since Jesus but He is the one who said "You MUST be born again" - not born. No need to "yell" at me or presume that you know my heart. God will be the final judge and love goes a long way.

Your posts are a bit confusing; so you do have an emotional stake in this. That is admitting that one can have emotions about the situation and still make logical conclusions. That is what the other members are doing here as well. Just as many scriptures have been presented for the idea that children are/could be covered, as those on your "side" of the issue. Please don't imply that emotion is why we hold a different opinion, and I'd point out that no one here has "yelled" at you, that would be against board rules and not be tolerated.

"Suffer the children" means a lot of things; one of which is that it serves as evidence that Jesus has a interest in the young ones, and makes it clear they actually do have protection, and if one is wronged, God is severely displeased. "As such is the kingdom of Heaven" also shows that children, and the way they approach the world, even perhaps a lack of self-awareness of "sin," and the ability to have faith as a child, is a preferable state.

Once more, we are pointing out your own inconsistencies; if one must be born again, then that applies to believers' children as well as non-believers'. We see in scripture that God is both perfectly Righteous and perfectly loving; He will take care of the little ones with absolute love and justice, and we can trust Him. Jesus paints a picture of the Father; scripture tells us what He said about, and how He treated children as He walked this earth; He does not change. Readers here just have to review the thread to see that scripture has indeed been presented for prayerful consideration on both sides.

[HeIsEnough]

Yes, we have grace since Jesus but He is the one who said "You MUST be born again" - not born.

This is a separate issue in a sense. There is just no way I believe any man can stand up and say this baby or that infant will suffer hell just because they were young at the time, too unbendingly calvinistic. Nor will babies see life just because they were dunked or sprinkled, too naively catholic. Those concepts are just mens thoughts. You have no compelling reason in scripture to stand so stoically on either view. You can tell a three month old you must be born again and salvation is only through Christ Jesus, all you'll get in response is maybe 'coo'.

I often wonder what the Lord would have said to a man if he pointed to a baby and asked, "Lord, what of this baby who died before one year old? Will they be cast into hell for the misfortune of dying young, even though You knew full well the day of their death?" Its not lost on me that the Lord is fully aware of when all men die, and at what age they will die. As Jonah found out, God does not think like man. He chose not to make this clear to us, and I believe He chose that for a reason, you can surmise your reasoning yourself.

No need to "yell" at me or presume that you know my heart. God will be the final judge and love goes a long way.

No one yelled, I don't know where you got that. People don't just roll over either, they will defend their beliefs. You also indicated conditions of peoples hearts, so judgment cuts both ways, the sword is double edged. We can move beyond these things rather easily though.

[iSong6:3]

Patreesha - First, I hope you are calmed down now. We can discuss this peaceably.

Do you agree that Paul, who learned directly from the Lord Himself and was entrusted to be a vessel to write the deep things about salvation and who also understood the Law, can understand the issue of child salvation?

Please see this: For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9

Paul was a Jew, born under the Law. But here he says he was "without the law once". How can that be?

When he was too young to understand and be accountable for his own keeping of it, he was not held accountable - he was free from the law. God does not expect babies to make atonement for their sins.

But when the commandment came, when he received it because he could receive it, his sins counted against him - sin revived.

And he was accounted as dead in his sin.

Not before that time, but at that time.

A whole lot of theology in that little sentence, but that's how Paul is - pretty smart dude.

Also King David's baby who died, David did not have to compound his grief thinking his son went straight to Hell, he knew God and knew that some day he would again be with his son - *he will not come to me but I will go to him*.

Throw out man-made ideas about God and His great salvation. They twist Scripture and God's character.

[Lucid]

Wow, iSong! Beautiful!

[twinangel]

Please see this: For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9

Paul was a Jew, born under the Law. But here he says he was "without the law once". How can that be?

When he was too young to understand and be accountable for his own keeping of it, he was not held accountable - he was free from the law. God does not expect babies to make atonement for their sins.

But when the commandment came, when he received it because he could receive it, his sins counted against him - sin revived.

And he was accounted as dead in his sin.

Not before that time, but at that time.

A whole lot of theology in that little sentence, but that's how Paul is - pretty smart dude.

Also King David's baby who died, David did not have to compound his grief thinking his son went straight to Hell, he knew God and knew that some day he would again be with his son - *he will not come to me but I will go to him*.

Throw out man-made ideas about God and His great salvation. They twist Scripture and God's character.

Exactly.

We just went over this in my Church not too long ago. It is the perfect answer to whether children are accountable, and if they will be taken during the Rapture.

[iongod]

I've seen on a few posts here the belief of many is that children will be raptured when the time comes. This topic has probably been debated here on more than one occassion but I'd like to re-visit it and ask these questions:

1) What scriptural bases is there to support the belief children will automatically be raptured?
2) Do ALL children qualify and if not, what are the criteria used if "children" are raptured, i.e. age, etc?
3) Regarding mentally challenged children and persons, are they given special consideration?

Start the discussion with these questions and as they get answered or proofed, others can be added. Please refrain from opinions unless you clearly state them as such. Provide scripture and commentary to back-up your statements and if quoting from the sages of the past, please provide your resource material. You who have the gift of teaching, now is your time to shine; make this a well-researched and thoughtful lesson for all of us.

Thanks in advance,
just-a-servant

God took Davids baby from him and David said he would see him again.

[ehbowen]

Listen; we're arguing two separate points. I'm not disputing that children too young to make a profession of faith go to heaven; I believe that the operating principle is "innocent until proven guilty". Where the fall down occurs in my mind is extending that from death to the Rapture. Death is something common to all men, but the Rapture is the "blessed hope" for the Church and ONLY for the Church. I do believe that the children of believing parents will be taken in the Rapture and I believe that is one of the things the apostle Paul had in mind when he penned 1 Corinthians 7:14. However, I see no reason to believe that all children worldwide including the unborn will be taken. Again, the Rapture is ONLY for the Church.

Children too young to be held accountable who die during the Tribulation will, I am sure, end up in Heaven. But I really don't think that all children everywhere will suddenly disappear. In areas which have few Christians or which have expelled their Christians, I think that the Rapture will pass virtually unnoticed. They'll probably think of it as Allah's blessing, which would hardly be the case if all of their little ones were gone.

[HeIsEnough]

I do believe that the children of believing parents will be taken in the Rapture and I believe that is one of the things the apostle Paul had in mind when he penned 1 Corinthians 7:14.

1 Corinthians 7

Concerning Married Life

¹ Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” ² But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. ³ The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. ⁴ The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. ⁵ Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. ⁶ I say this as a concession, not as a command. ⁷ I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. ⁸ Now to the unmarried^[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. ⁹ But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
¹⁰ To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. ¹¹ But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
¹² To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. ¹³ And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. ¹⁴ For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

¹⁵ But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. ¹⁶ How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

Just highlighting one issue with your interpretation. You'll notice this is in the context of marriage, and its not talking about salvation. An unbeliever cannot be sanctified unto salvation just by being married to a believer, and I know you understand that. The view of children in this verse is along those lines.

Children too young to be held accountable who die during the Tribulation will, I am sure, end up in Heaven. But I really don't think that all children everywhere will suddenly disappear. In areas which have few Christians or which have expelled their Christians, I think that the Rapture will pass virtually unnoticed. They'll probably think of it as Allah's blessing, which would hardly be the case if all of their little ones were gone.

You point out things that are just kind of fantastical (to me anyway), there are so many unknowns, its just not clear what the Lord will do. I am sure of one thing, the Lord will do what is right, no matter what He does, it will be the perfect thing to do. Its clear to me through history that bad things happen to people, even children, believer or not. The Rapture is not ordinary history though, it is a complete reset of life on this earth, the Lord can do anything.

[ehbowen]

Just highlighting one issue with your interpretation. You'll notice this is in the context of marriage, and its not talking about salvation. An unbeliever cannot be sanctified unto salvation just by being married to a believer, and I know you understand that. The view of children in this verse is along those lines.

No, an unbeliever does not become born again and a Christian by being married to a believer. However, in those cases where the unbeliever loves his/her spouse and regards them as a full partner in the marriage in both thought and deeds...I think it could go a long ways toward making the difference between a "sheep" and a "goat".

[HeIsEnough]

...I think it could go a long ways toward making the difference between a "sheep" and a "goat".

My heart goes out to those married to unbelievers, but I've heard wonderful stories of faithful men and women, who after sometimes many years, live through the joy of their mate coming to know the Lord. I hope these testimonies encourage those in that position to pray without ceasing for their spouse.

[Keifer]

Please see this: For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9

Paul was a Jew, born under the Law. But here he says he was "without the law once". How can that be?

When he was too young to understand and be accountable for his own keeping of it, he was not held accountable - he was free from the law. God does not expect babies to make atonement for their sins.

Amen! All children, prior to their individual age of accountability, are innocent. God views all of these children as belonging to Him:

“Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 18:10)

[XMaryX]

Thanks for all the insightful comments on this; children and animals have been on my heart for a long time and I know it's an emotional subject. Let's all remember to be gentle w/ one another; these days are very dark, and typing does not convey emotions; accuracy is important but let's not be snarky or cool in our replies. Gentleness and kindness should always be the rule; we are all brothers and sisters in Christ; let's lift each other up and try not be too critical

[CID03]

I tried to search for a thread on this topic because I was certain there was one before but I couldn't find anything. Anyway, here are my thoughts/questions on this topic. I have always believed and been taught that all children will be raptured with the bride of Christ at the rapture. This has always seemed appropriate since we know, because of His nature, God will do what is just and right and we believe that children that "die" under the age of accountability automatically go to heaven, (at least I do).

However, the rapture is actually when Christ returns for "His bride", those who have already "died In Christ" and those that are "alive" and "in Christ." Theoretically, an infant or child to young to make a decision for Christ is not yet "In Christ", he/she is still in his/her sin since we know even an infant is born as a sinner. So if a child is too young to understand the gospel and is not yet "in Christ", and and although I believe they would be covered in the event of death (the rapture is not the same thing as death), can we be sure that all children will be raptured? An infant would be at least 7 or 8 years old by the time Christ returned so he/she would be old enough, I think, to understand the gospel.

I am not trying to freak out anyone with young children as I have two myself, I just was thinking about this and read something about this and thought I would share it with the most knowledgeable Christians I know of anywhere in this world.

[Shannon9602]

My youngest is 9 years old and he does not entirely understand what accepting Christ and being save mean.

[vemee]

We don't know how God will judge the children but I think it will be the same for children of unbelievers as with believers. I do not think God will send those who are too young to be accountable to hell based on their parents. What if someone who is a believer now had unbelieving parents and they died before they could be held accountable. Those who are now saved would be lost.

I believe God knows how a person will choose under every condition. He knows those who will choose Him and places them in time and space where He wants them. God has numbered our days and has determined our lifespan. In other words we won't go until it is our time to go. That in itself is a big subject for discussion.

God knowing that a person will accept Him under any conditions could for whatever His purpose decide that person will die before reaching the age of accountability. Because God knows the direction of the child's soul would go as an adult that child will go to heaven. I believe this is true for all children who die throughout the world and only those whom God knows would be saved are put in that position.

There are problems with this. The first is do children need to be saved? Romans 5:12

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

We are born dead because of Adam's sin. Paul said in Romans 7:9 that sin revived when the law came, sin had to already be present to be revived. David said he was conceived in sin. All the law does is to expose sin. Children have a sin nature even though they are not accountable for their actions. A two year old going through the terrible twos is a good example of the sin nature in a child. They are too young to understand but they are in need of salvation.

My biggest problem with this is that while Jesus provides salvation for them, they can be saved without making a decision for Christ. Of course they are not capable of making one but does that make this a false idea. Is it heresy to say that in the cases of those who do not have the ability to make a decision (which include those who are mentally incapable) are allowed to be saved without hearing or accepting the Gospel? They are still saved through the work of Christ. The alternative is that God judges them for their sin when they were incapable of being being saved which does not seem just. Some one mentioned David's child; here is the quote from 2 Samuel 12:13

"But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

That quote was put there by the Holy Spirit for a reason.

You could take the inverse of this idea and say that all children that die before the age of accountability are those who will never accept Christ. Besides being a repugnant idea, it is not how God operates. He does not judge and punish us for what we potentially will or can do in the future only what we have done. God blessed Saul until he disobeyed God.

As far as the rapture goes; I think all children will go for the same reason they go to heaven when they die.

[RandallB]

vemee
We don't know how God will judge the children but I think it will be the same for children of unbelievers as with believers. I do not think God will send those who are too young to be accountable to hell based on their parents.
......

I was reading Jack Kelly's article on Jonah and was struck by the fact that the Lord had numbered the children of Nineveh. He knew them. They were part of His kingdom.

I also believe that children of unbelievers and believers will be in heaven with the Lord, for to such belongs the kingdom of Heaven..

Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God."

[raptfor56]

I have to admit, it's late at night and I haven't read many of the posts in this thread. I agree with the group that mentions God not taking the children during the flood or when he destroyed Sodom. On the emotional side, I do feel in my heart that God does save the children even though they go through the judgement of the parents which may be part of the parents torment; watching their children die.
We have to look at death from God's perspective. What we see as death of a child is a homecoming to God. Looking at God's actions in the past, I believe that children of the unsaved will be left here at the rapture while the children of born again believers who have not reached whatever age of responsibility will be raptured, but all the children will enter heaven.
Then again, we could look at the point that the promises were to Isaac and not Ishmael, and to Jacob and not Esau so there would be a case for Arab children not being in Heaven. It's complicated.
We must just concede that our God is totally just and will do what is right in his mind.

[Kliska]

I have to admit, it's late at night and I haven't read many of the posts in this thread. I agree with the group that mentions God not taking the children during the flood or when he destroyed Sodom. On the emotional side, I do feel in my heart that God does save the children even though they go through the judgement of the parents which may be part of the parents torment; watching their children die.
We have to look at death from God's perspective. What we see as death of a child is a homecoming to God. Looking at God's actions in the past, I believe that children of the unsaved will be left here at the rapture while the children of born again believers who have not reached whatever age of responsibility will be raptured, but all the children will enter heaven.
Then again, we could look at the point that the promises were to Isaac and not Ishmael, and to Jacob and not Esau so there would be a case for Arab children not being in Heaven. It's complicated.
We must just concede that our God is totally just and will do what is right in his mind.

If God takes the children of believers vs. those of non-believers, that is visiting the sin of the parent on the children, and He doesn't do that, esp. in the age of Grace. Also, this is the church age, and the old covenant promises (the promises given to Israel) takes back over after the rapture..."Arab" children are on the same playing field as everyone else below the age of accountability.

[iSong6:3]

If God takes the children of believers vs. those of non-believers, that is visiting the sin of the parent on the children, and He doesn't do that, esp. in the age of Grace. Also, this is the church age, and the old covenant promises (the promises given to Israel) takes back over after the rapture..."Arab" children are on the same playing field as everyone else below the age of accountability.

Children of Arabs, Jews, Christians, atheists...all children.

[SuzanneJ]

I recently learned that Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum teaches that children could be left behind in the Rapture, especially from unbelieving households. This came as a shock to me as both my daughter and SIL are unsaved. I had thought that at least my 2 little grandbabies would be raptured if the Lord delayed answering my prayers for salvation for their parents until after the Rapture. Now I am in terrible fear that these innocents and other children in my extended family will have to endure the Tribulation. Dr. F. cites the Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as examples in which children perished along with their parents. Since both of these examples are types of the Rapture his reasoning is at least worthy of consideration. Dr. F. also says that the Bible doesn't speak to the issue of age of accountability.
Does anyone have some insight about this?