What is so disappointing is almost every Pastor I know has some John Piper books, and many are not even aware of this. I am finding out also, just because someone is a Pastor does not mean they have discernment either. It was my former Pastor that gave me the "Ragamuffin Gospel" by Brennon Manning to read. Sheesh!!!
I believe the theology lurking behind this quote is problematic, but I need a very detailed Scriptural study to analyse it before posting a Bible-based rebuttal here.
............I am instantly "on alert" when any pastor says these words...."everybody repeat after me.....blah,blah blah blah blah blah blah......."..........unless those words are direct Bible quotes..............in context...............
joel im not sure where you got that quote but it wasnt worded right so i went to the web site and found the right one.
What Is Christian Hedonism?
My shortest summary of Christian Hedonism is: God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him.
We all make a god out of what we take the most pleasure in. Christian Hedonists want to make God their God by seeking after the greatest pleasure—pleasure in him.
Last edited by petras; May 4th, 2009 at 01:30 PM. Reason: so i could bold the statement. and just the statement
also the Biblical support for the statement is from the book of Isaiah. just thought i would let you know.
ok tell me if I"m getting this or if I'm way off base!
I looked up John Piper online, and went to his actual website. I started reading his 5 points of calvanism as what he believes.
At first I was like what??? I don't get what is wrong. But here is my guess:
Is it that he believes Jesus death on the cross was not for all men, but for only whom God chooses?
That really confused me! Because didn't Jesus die for all, but only the people that accept that gift go to heaven?
And John Piper says the verse that talks about His death being for the whole world is really meaning the church. the whole world means only God's chosen scattered around the world
Am I getting this right?
Boy you really have to do some digging into these teachers to find the real beliefs, and there was so much mumbo jumbo on this belief that it thoroughly confused me!!
You need to understand Calvinism:
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
The one you are having issue with is the second and third statements of Calvinism.
Personally, I will never put limits on God (ie: limited atonement) but the rest you have to pray about yourself.
John Piper is not allowed to be quoted on this forum:
I was about to post a link, but it seems to have disappeared . . as it was a post by Sing4Him . . . wonder who is being added to the list . . . .
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh:
oops I seem to be saying everything I"m not supposed to say.
It is indeed a good thing you're interested in 'testing the spirits.'
I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.
For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor;
no good thing does He withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
1 Timothy 4:10 (King James Version)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Paul wrote that Jesus "is the savior of all men." This, to me, rules out limited atonement. Atonement was made for everybody, but not everybody is saved. Payment for sin was made at the cross for everybody, but it only gets credited to the one who places his faith in Jesus Christ. Another passage that says this is here:
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Jesus made propitiation "for the sins of the whole world," but it only applies to those who place their faith in Jesus.
Still another passage:
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Again, the free gift is available to all men, but (as vs 17 shows), it applies to "they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness", and we already know that gift is received by faith in Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
So, I just don't buy limited atonement.
To the Mods in this Thread how do you guys know so much????
Where can you get this documentary? Has it been released yet?
Thanks for posting!
There was an article in the Atlanta Constitution Journal several years ago and it dealt with Creflo Dollar and the prosperity gospel. They interviewed the pastor of another, small church in the area and he made a statement I'll never forget. He wouldn't judge Dollar's heart as to whether he was a Christian or not, but he did say that when he personally passed Dollar's church he noticed that all the luxury vehicles were parked in the slots marked for the ministry people and the rest of the parking lot was mostly filled with older moderately priced vehicles. It seems, to me, the only people getting rich on the prosperity gospel are the preachers, their families, and their friends. Unfortunately, I know from personal experience that the "partners" of these ministries are only getting poorer, not richer.
Was having a friendly discussion at work and of course someone mentioned Creflo Dollar. It was a nice and civil discussion, but what is a good reply to people who say "But God wants us to prosper to help other's"? My reply was that of course he does but if they are not preaching sin, confession of sin, repentance and salvation through the Blood of Jesus Christ it does no good. If anyone can add to this I would be grateful. Thank you. I feel blessed that I work at a place that I can discuss these things, but the scripture "My people perish from lack of knowledge" is really hitting home right now. Thank you.
Mod's please move this to Apostasy. I have been up since 4:30 am. Sorry I messed up.